[///AVM]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

For the benefit of this thread, the torque converter has no impact on the shifts themselves as it is locked up pretty soon after take off under load - this is one reason why ZF8 shifts are as responsive as they are given it's a traditional planetary automatic. The shifts themselves are handled by the planetary clutch packs, which ultimately can't be engaged as hard as the DCT clutches, hence why power is backed off momentarily and the shift isn't slammed under load. ZF8 shifts will never be as snappy or direct as DCT shifts, but that is due to design - doesn't mean the shifts aren't fast or have decent feel as we are talking about fine margins here. In fact, the torque converter actually provides a fairly significant advantage over the DCT in that from a launch you can brake boost it and lay down more torque at take off.

If you ask me, ZF8 having DCT level speed and having the shift feel that it does while still being designed as a traditional automatic is a pretty good deal!

Rugby

Thank you for stepping in and providing some edification . . . love it!

As you suggest, we are talking 'fine margins' in terms of perception.

///AVM

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Rugby

Thank you for stepping in and providing some edification . . . love it!

As you suggest, we are talking 'fine margins' in terms of perception.

///AVM

If anyone is interested to understand how it works, here is a very 2010 video explaining some of ZF8's features. It has quite a robust TC w/ a lock up clutch.

At 1:59 of the following, the M engineer explains the lock-up concept (funnily enough, if you watch these back to back, the M video is almost verbatim repeating the video from 2010! Shows this design hasn't had to change since then). 4:36 does a fair job of explaining the differences between ZF8 and DCT, and the pros and cons of both

[///AVM]

Thank you again Rugby!

I am not a technical guru when it comes to ‘what is under the hood,’ so to speak. My interest resides in everyday function, e.g., does it perform up to my expectation?

The above stated, the videos you provided were very informative. I do not want to get in over my head technically but would like to TRY and relate ‘function and form’ just a little bit.

At the end of the second video the engineer expresses his view that BMW accomplished near perfection in terms of (1) speed and (2) comfort with the M Streptronic (ZF8).

Shift SPEED is pretty self-explanatory in terms of perception. This thread is a perfect example, as I inadvertently performed an experiment between S1 and S3, confirming S3 shifts are significantly faster and more satisfactory (with both DCT and ZF8).

Technically, the engineer indicates shifts are faster with DCT than ZF8 with OPTIMAL gear shifts while, viz a viz, this would suggest the ZF8 is faster with ‘non-optimal’ shifts.

To simplify, I will leave out DCT/ZF8 automatic mode in terms of shift speed and assume the computer optimizes the shifts in both DCT and ZF8. That stated, functionally, I find ZF8 automatic FAR superior to DCT automatic mode.

In terms of ‘optimal’ when it comes to manual shifts, this is where I get in over my head technically but am under the impression optimal occurs at red line. I provide reference below and am open to commentary and insight by others on the topic.

If optimal occurs at redline with manual shifts, this would suggest that DCT shifts are only faster than ZF8 in that one instance. However, getting back to perception thresholds in every day spirited driving, I really do not perceive the difference between ZF8 and DCT with optimal shifts (or non-optimal shifts before red line).

What is comfort with respect to gear shifts? Smoothness of shifts? Abruptness might generally be considered suboptimal BUT tends to be embraced with spirited drivers. Perhaps this captures the ‘raw vs refined’ nature of DCT and ZF8, respectively?

If so, I would agree the ZF8 shifts are smoother (more comfortable) than DCT . . . but both lay the torque/power down and kick you in the back.

///AVM

https://glennmessersmith.com/shiftpt.html

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Thank you again Rugby!

I am not a technical guru when it comes to ‘what is under the hood,’ so to speak. My interest resides in everyday function, e.g., does it perform up to my expectation?

The above stated, the videos you provided were very informative. I do not want to get in over my head technically but would like to TRY and relate ‘function and form’ just a little bit.

At the end of the second video the engineer expresses his view that BMW accomplished near perfection in terms of (1) speed and (2) comfort with the M Streptronic (ZF8).

Shift SPEED is pretty self-explanatory in terms of perception. This thread is a perfect example, as I inadvertently performed an experiment between S1 and S3, confirming S3 shifts are significantly faster and more satisfactory (with both DCT and ZF8).

Technically, the engineer indicates shifts are faster with DCT than ZF8 with OPTIMAL gear shifts while, viz a viz, this would suggest the ZF8 is faster with ‘non-optimal’ shifts.

To simplify, I will leave out DCT/ZF8 automatic mode in terms of shift speed and assume the computer optimizes the shifts in both DCT and ZF8. That stated, functionally, I find ZF8 automatic FAR superior to DCT automatic mode.

In terms of ‘optimal’ when it comes to manual shifts, this is where I get in over my head technically but am under the impression optimal occurs at red line. I provide reference below and am open to commentary and insight by others on the topic.

If optimal occurs at redline with manual shifts, this would suggest that DCT shifts are only faster than ZF8 in that one instance. However, getting back to perception thresholds in every day spirited driving, I really do not perceive the difference between ZF8 and DCT with optimal shifts (or non-optimal shifts before red line).

What is comfort with respect to gear shifts? Smoothness of shifts? Abruptness might generally be considered suboptimal BUT tends to be embraced with spirited drivers. Perhaps this captures the ‘raw vs refined’ nature of DCT and ZF8, respectively?

If so, I would agree the ZF8 shifts are smoother (more comfortable) than DCT . . . but both lay the torque/power down and kick you in the back.

///AVM

https://glennmessersmith.com/shiftpt.html

I try not to see things as better or worse, just as they are. I think when the engineer says they perfected the shift in terms of speed and comfort I wouldn’t say they are right or wrong - it really depends on what you want out of the experience or what suits your style better. Ultimately the difference in snappiness and the relatively few extra milliseconds that the DCT saves really impact “feel” more than any objective performance (at least any performance that us non-race driver mortals can extract). I think the engineer stopped short of quoting any stats related to non-optimal shifts because I would wager the DCT and ZF8 have nearly equal or equal shift times in that scenario (purely an anecdote here from my experience in both). The comfort is almost certainly referring to ZF’s reduction in torque under a max load shift - this is very similar to slipping the clutch in a manual, which in itself can be quite advantageous as it will never upset the chassis. While DCT’s TCU will sense lateral load and slip a max torque shift as well, under no lateral load The DCT is literally power shifting under max engine load so there is no torque drop off - equivalent of power / no lift shifting in a manual, hence why the shift feels more brutal, lunges you forward, chirps the tires, etc. As CanAutM3 can tell you, and what the engineer in the M video alluded to, the DCT utilizes and recoups the engine’s own inertia in that power shift... the result of having extremely robust clutches. Again, to you and me, this is primarily going to impact feel - I certainly am not at the driving skill level where those milliseconds my DCT saves are going to benefit me.

Anyway, I’ve always thought the ZF8 is a really fantastic transmission because it is incredibly reliable and available, yet provides a very high level of performance. It’s honestly better than some DCTs on the market IMO (cough cough DSG cough cough) and only really feels less snappy when compared to the creme of the crop DCTs (MDCT, PDK, etc.) My *only* knock on ZF8 (and admittedly this knock is extremely trivial) is that it is just in seemingly every car these days across a swath of manufacturers... but you can see exactly why, for the price and performance it is really unmatched. I guess the one other thing (speculation here) is that S58 is seemingly limited to 7200 because of ZF8 - its engine dyno shows a redline of 7600. While I don’t know that S58 would carry peak power to a 7600 redline, it would be nice to have those extra 400 revs as you could use that as an overrun zone just like on S55 to avoid fuel cut at redline. Not a massive deal as S58 is still getting peak power at 7200, but just means you have to be very deliberate with shift timing to avoid bouncing off the limiter.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

. . . just means you have to be very deliberate with shift timing to avoid bouncing off the limiter.

Another awesome post Rugby!!!

All of it great, but the last line is so true . . . what I mean when I say the ZF8 has one too many gears . . . and that I have no idea what people mean when they say Porsche gearing is too tall?

Thank you again

///AVM

[///AVM]

Have not spent any time commenting on M3C aesthetics because, frankly, I am not much a fan of how the car 'looks' . . . interest lies with its performance during spirited daily driving.

The above stated, I went out on a limb when picking Portimao Blue . . . and it has really turned out to be both a beautiful and dynamic color.

Got the standard dealership wash at my 1,200 mile fluid swap the other day, so I snapped a couple picks. Cannot believe the contrast in hue compared to a previous pick in lower light.

///AVM

[JCZ5]

That blue is spectacular!

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by JCZ5

That blue is spectacular!

JCZ5

Thank you brother . . . I suspect it looks NEARLY as good as Gentian Blue on a 718 GT4 . . . you know, just incase you know anyone who might have such an incoming sport car.

///AVM

[evilalien]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

The above stated, I went out on a limb when picking Portimao Blue . . . and it has really turned out to be both a beautiful and dynamic color.

Those are great photos. I test-drove an M3C in Portimao on a cloudy wet day, and it just didn't really do that much for me. These photos reassure me. If I can't get Santonini then I think I'll be happy enough with Portimao!

[///AVM]

In a prior post I brought up the topic of the HUD, specifically referencing SPORT M-Mode SPORT display and the tachometer.

Again the tachometer is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE; you never have to try and monitor the gauge cluster tach out of the corner of your eye. When you approach 4-5K RPM another, even larger (e.g., magnified) tach line appears above the running tach line. The magnified line lights up and progresses from yellow to red as you rev it out.

I tried to find photos/videos of this feature online for the G80/82 and could not find anything as visual aid. However, I was perusing the owners manual and came across the page shown below. It is in black and white, but you can see the tach line and magnified tach line above it (e.g., arrows 1 and 2).

This might seem like a 'little thing' but if you enjoy getting the most out of your shift points like I do, then you will quickly fall in love with this feature.

///AVM

[BIGW0RM]

THIS. THREAD. DELIVERS!

I am on the fence about adding a G80 to my garage. Ive had E92,F10 M5, F82 M4, F80 M3 and 2 991.2 911's and two 992 911's.

This thread explained a lot that I was curious to hear from a former DCT/PDK owner. Thank you for posting this AVM!

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

In a prior post I brought up the topic of the HUD, specifically referencing SPORT M-Mode SPORT display and the tachometer.

Again the tachometer is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE; you never have to try and monitor the gauge cluster tach out of the corner of your eye. When you approach 4-5K RPM another, even larger (e.g., magnified) tach line appears above the running tach line. The magnified line lights up and progresses from yellow to red as you rev it out.

I tried to find photos/videos of this feature online for the G80/82 and could not find anything as visual aid. However, I was perusing the owners manual and came across the page shown below. It is in black and white, but you can see the tach line and magnified tach line above it (e.g., arrows 1 and 2).

This might seem like a 'little thing' but if you enjoy getting the most out of your shift points like I do, then you will quickly fall in love with this feature.

///AVM

The M-Mode shift lights in the HUD is one of my favorite features. The graphics are clear, with current RPM and shift guidance lights properly discernible. It's like a videogame, in a good way.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by BIGW0RM

THIS. THREAD. DELIVERS!

I am on the fence about adding a G80 to my garage. Ive had E92,F10 M5, F82 M4, F80 M3 and 2 991.2 911's and two 992 911's.

This thread explained a lot that I was curious to hear from a former DCT/PDK owner. Thank you for posting this AVM!

BIGW0RM

You are welcome.

Glad you found it helpful.

Best

///AVM

[aassad1]

I just picked up the M4C yesterday coming from a 6MT M2C and a 6MT M2 prior. The dealership gave me an offer that was really just too good to pass by and I have to say so far I am really enjoying the M4C. It is VERY different than my M2C. I certainly FEEL the difference in size and weight at this point, but I anticipate that feeling will fade over time. I was running a BM3 tune on the M2C and it was an all out hell beast. Every time I drove was exciting and if I wanted it to be a bit scary. I do love, and suspect I will miss, rowing gears, but I turned 36 yesterday and frankly thought it might be time for something a bit more practical in so far as my fiance actually being able to drive it haha.

I did test drive the M4 in manual and must say that it pales in comparison to the M4C. The car just felt too big to be fun with a 6MT, why I can't say, but the ZF8 is just the better version of this car. I got out of the 6MT and was actually disappointed with the car when comparing it to my M2C. Within 30 seconds of driving the M4C I actually said to my fiance, oh... this is how this car is supposed to be and it's pretty fantastic. I did have a similar experience to AVM with regards to the transmission settings. In setting 1 the automatic is boring and uninspiring. In setting 2 is fun and in setting 3 it's a freaking riot.

I only have 100miles on the car, yes I drove quite a bit yesterday, but my initial impression is that the M2C w/ tune is like a kid with severe ADHD and is a downright hooligan. My memories of that car will always be fond and I hope I don't regret getting rid of it in the future. The M4C is like the guy who used to rage in college but has settled down with 2 kids and a wife in the county. But Lord help him if he goes out with the boys to blow off some steam because his tolerance isn't what it was and he will fly off the freaking chains if you give him a little bit of room. This car can be a boring DD and an absolute blast to drive depending on your mood. I suspect with time I will continue to get used to the larger size and adjust my driving style to better embrace it, but so far I don't have any regrets on the switch. I'm loving the technology, the power and the customizability of the driving experience in a way that the M2C just didn't have. It actually makes me quite intrigued for what the next iteration of the M2C will bring to the table.

I'm looking forward to the car "settling" into itself and to see if I will notice it's evolution like AVM has. But, I must say, I'm very encouraged to read your experience thus far and can't wait to follow your future installments of your experience.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by aassad1

I just picked up the M4C yesterday coming from a 6MT M2C and a 6MT M2 prior. The dealership gave me an offer that was really just too good to pass by and I have to say so far I am really enjoying the M4C. It is VERY different than my M2C. I certainly FEEL the difference in size and weight at this point, but I anticipate that feeling will fade over time. I was running a BM3 tune on the M2C and it was an all out hell beast. Every time I drove was exciting and if I wanted it to be a bit scary. I do love, and suspect I will miss, rowing gears, but I turned 36 yesterday and frankly thought it might be time for something a bit more practical in so far as my fiance actually being able to drive it haha.

I did test drive the M4 in manual and must say that it pales in comparison to the M4C. The car just felt too big to be fun with a 6MT, why I can't say, but the ZF8 is just the better version of this car. I got out of the 6MT and was actually disappointed with the car when comparing it to my M2C. Within 30 seconds of driving the M4C I actually said to my fiance, oh... this is how this car is supposed to be and it's pretty fantastic. I did have a similar experience to AVM with regards to the transmission settings. In setting 1 the automatic is boring and uninspiring. In setting 2 is fun and in setting 3 it's a freaking riot.

I only have 100miles on the car, yes I drove quite a bit yesterday, but my initial impression is that the M2C w/ tune is like a kid with severe ADHD and is a downright hooligan. My memories of that car will always be fond and I hope I don't regret getting rid of it in the future. The M4C is like the guy who used to rage in college but has settled down with 2 kids and a wife in the county. But Lord help him if he goes out with the boys to blow off some steam because his tolerance isn't what it was and he will fly off the freaking chains if you give him a little bit of room. This car can be a boring DD and an absolute blast to drive depending on your mood. I suspect with time I will continue to get used to the larger size and adjust my driving style to better embrace it, but so far I don't have any regrets on the switch. I'm loving the technology, the power and the customizability of the driving experience in a way that the M2C just didn't have. It actually makes me quite intrigued for what the next iteration of the M2C will bring to the table.

I'm looking forward to the car "settling" into itself and to see if I will notice it's evolution like AVM has. But, I must say, I'm very encouraged to read your experience thus far and can't wait to follow your future installments of your experience.

Congratulations! Yes, the M2C is a fantastic car; I'm still fond of its simplicity and focus. I think you'll find that, the more vigorously you drive your new car, the more overlap there is between the two driving experiences.

The 6MT base car is another one that does better when driven with more verve. How hard did you get to drive it?

[///AVM]

Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) with the M2C was a complete nightmare right out of the box. The 'nanny' intrusion was horrible. Conversely, M Dynamic Mode (MDM) was quite enjoyable and not too intrusive for relatively safe AND spirited daily driving. Once you become familiar with the M2C and conditions SAFELY allowed, turning DSC completely off was a blast.

By comparison, DSC with the G80 M3C is not nearly as intrusive, and MDM is also an apparent sweet spot for BOTH safe and spirited daily driving. Nonetheless, there are occasions when the roadway conditions permit next-level 'spiritedness' and I would like to start exploring M Traction Control (MTC).

It seems there is more to MTC than initially meets the eye. If MTC 0 (zero) is DSC completely off and setting 10 is DSC fully engaged, then you would think MDM would fall somewhere in-between (e.g., MDM = MTC setting 6). However, in my initial attempts to figure this out, this does not seem to be the case. There must be more to this than meets the eye?

As per many new things, the best way to learn is to jump in and explore. I will find an open and safe venue to 'play' with various MTC settings. Not sure how long it will take me to become familiar and comfortable with various MTC settings but will report back when I find a 'landing pad' in terms of favorite setting(s) for various conditions.

In the interim, if anyone can provide some feedback about how MDM vs MTC works I would be appreciative. Again, it does not seem MDM is simply a setting between 0 and 10 on the MTC scale???

///AVM

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) with the M2C was a complete nightmare right out of the box. The ‘nanny’ intrusion was horrible. Conversely, M Dynamic Mode (MDM) was quite enjoyable and not too intrusive for relatively safe AND spirited daily driving. Once you become familiar with the M2C and roadway conditions SAFELY allowed, turning DSC completely off was a blast.

By comparison, DSC with the G80 M3C is not nearly as intrusive, and MDM is also an apparent sweet spot for BOTH safe and spirited daily driving. Nonetheless, there are occasions when the roadway conditions permit next-level ‘spiritedness’ and I would like to start exploring M Traction Control (MTC).

It seems there is more to MTC than initially meets the eye. If MTC 0 (zero) is DSC completely off and setting 10 is DSC fully engaged, then you would think MDM would fall somewhere in-between (e.g., MDM = MTC setting 6). However, in my initial attempts to figure this out, this does not seem to be the case. There must be more to this than meets the eye?

As per many new things, the best way to learn is to jump in and explore. I will find an open and safe venue to ‘play’ with various MTC settings. Not sure how long it will take me to become familiar and comfortable with various MTC settings but will report back when I find a 'landing pad' in terms of favorite setting(s) for various conditions.

In the interim, if anyone can provide some feedback about how MDM vs MTC works I would be appreciative. Again, it does not seem MDM is simply a setting between 0 and 10 on the MTC scale???

///AVM

This video may be helpful:

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by aassad1

I just picked up the M4C yesterday . . . I'm looking forward to the car "settling" into itself and to see if I will notice its evolution like AVM has. But, I must say, I'm very encouraged to read your experience thus far and can't wait to follow your future installments of your experience.

Congrats aassad!

By 1,000 miles the M2C will be a distant memory . . . the G80/82 is next level engineering and performance.

As a former MT fanboy, everything I enjoyed and more is present with PDK/DCT and now ZF8.

Ability to control shift points is EVERYTHING! The bonus is that you get to power shift.

The second bonus is you do have an impressive ZF8 automatic mode if the mood presents itself (e.g., long highway hauls or traffic).

Do not miss the clutch AT ALL!

Finally, for whatever reason that really miffs me, it seems most that utilize PDK/DCT/ZF8 manual mode do so through the paddles. I NEVER use the paddles, as I do not want to give up holding and engaging the shifter; I need to 'feel' the shifts. DO NOT USE THOSE PADDLES

Enjoy your new ride and keep us up-to-date as things settle in over time.

///AVM

[garpt]

I've been lurking around this thread the last couple of weeks. New M3 owner (6 Sp.) Since I only have 600 miles, it is great reading about the car settling in over the next 600 or so. At any rate, this is my 4th BMW. It is already my favorite BMW- by a long shot! I imagine it is this type of car-- performance: handling, speed, engagement- that brought about the slogan "The Ultimate Driving Machine"! This car is a blast! I haven't had a manual transmission car in almost 20 years, and that was a big part of my buying decision, as well as the styling. I actually love it. As far as "bests" , comparing it to the dozen or so new cars I have owned so far- this car has the best engine (I've always been a fan of quality in- line sixes), best handling, best seats, best looking (IMO.) It loves to be run hard, although I haven't done a lot of that yet. With the stick, when I want to drive "spirited", I keep the rev's around 3000. Then I KNOW if i stomp on it the car is going to pull hard. The torque is tremendous, and the torque band is quite wide. It's at its best pulling power from about 3G to mid 5000's before the curve starts to even out. That's the prime, high torque power area. And the car handles like none I have ever had. It is so controlled through any curves, that even when you try to push it to its limits, you always feel as if you are in control. Yes, I believe it's a true sports sedan, to me it doesn't feel as big/ heavy as it is said to be. It is very light on its feet when pushed, yet comfortable with a sporty type of luxury when driven civilized. It feels lighter than my previous 4- series convertible. The carbon fiber seats are a MUST IMO. I'm not small, (6' 235lb.) and the seats are very comfortable and especially supportive. The only thing I don't like (but yet I know it has to be that way) is the high side bolster when entering and leaving the car. I'm not a youngster and have had foot issues due to diabetes. My solution was to set the #2 seat position to go back so I can enter and exit much more easily. The fit and finish also seems as if BMW has stepped it up recently. The paint is amazing. The Isle of Man Green reflects in the Florida sun like a huge green sapphire. I guess you can tell I like the car. Very much.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by garpt

. . . New M3 owner (6 Sp.)
. . . It is already my favorite BMW- by a long shot!
. . . As far as "bests," . . . this car has the best engine, best handling, best seats, best looking (IMO.) It loves to be run hard, although I haven't done a lot of that yet. With the stick, when I want to drive "spirited", I keep the rev's around 3000
. . . I guess you can tell I like the car. Very much.

Congrats Garpt!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and enthusiasm for your new M3.

I have to agree with you about the S58 . . . it is most certainly a highlight of the G80/82. Not sure how BMW engineers outdid themselves with respect to the S55, but they have!

The 'handling' is something that took some time - the most time - for ME to appreciate. The car itself - like any other - simply takes time to come into its own. On my end, it simply takes seat time to 'mesh' with a vehicle.

My most recent sources of handling comparison are the M2C and 718 CGTS. At this point I am as impressed with the M3C handling as I was the M2C. In some regards, even more so . . . I doubt there are many cars on the road that will ever compete with the 718 handling.

I do not share your enthusiasm for the G80 design architecture ('looks') . . . but I do not care about the looks anymore than anyone else cares what I think about how the car looks. If the G80 appeals to your visual senses, that is all that matters. I can only imagine how amazing that IOMG looks in the Florida sunshine.

I am not sure running the vehicle at 3000 RPM is what most would consider 'spirited,' but if you like the experience in that rev range, then you will likely become priaprismic when you start pushing it to the upper rev limits.

Like you, I grow more enticed with the G80 every time I drive it . . . great car!

Drive safe, enjoy and let us know how things continue to evolve as your ownership experience moves forward.

Best

///AVM

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

This video may be helpful:

O2

Thank you for providing the video.

What remains unclear to me at this point is whether MDM simply represents an undisclosed setting in MTC, e.g., setting 6?

///AVM

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

O2

Thank you for providing the video.

What remains unclear to me at this point is whether MDM simply represents an undisclosed setting in MTC, e.g., setting 6?

///AVM

I've read somewhere MDM uses MTC settings 4-7 depending on data.