[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Yep, I'm too poor to afford a new 911. Gee, darn. I was, for much of my life, too poor to afford an M3. I was once, 30+ years ago, too poor to afford a car that was less than 40% rust. 75k car or 135k car...both of them are too expensive for most people.

A friend of mine who makes a hair over the median wage for the area just bought her first new car at 45 years of age. A 23k Hyundai Kona. She has massive family expenses due to difficulties a few family members face and was so very thrilled to finally have a car that didn't have millions of miles and dents. She drove over to show it to me and insisted that I take it for a drive. I felt like I was driving a Fisher Price toy (the interior plastics are AWFUL). I did nothing but compliment it and really enjoyed seeing how happy she is.

Perspective is a wonderful thing.

You're a solid friend, and you're right.......perspective AND humility are wonderful things.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Interesting. I’ve always perceived the non-GT, non-Turbo 911s as the ones you buy if you can’t afford the real hardware. The regular cars don’t drive special enough to justify the compromises. We’re just now getting 911s with decent infotainment. To me, they’re not quite special enough to be exclusively weekend cars which puts the realistic use case squarely in M3 land (fun daily). Those compromises weigh more heavily as usage goes up, which is probably why these forums are populated by lots of people who came back to the M value proposition after a stint with a C2S.

Now, a standard GT3 (of any generation)? Completely and utterly different story. It seems that most M enthusiasts who “graduate” are happiest when they step up to those cars and pair them with a reasonable daily (which is sometimes another M).

Getting discounts on regular 911s have been pretty commonplace until very recently with the overall massive shift in the automotive marketplace. They have also depreciated pretty normally (slower than M5/6/8, in line with M3/4), again, until recently. I’d say F8x depreciation is on par with regular 911s still; all boats have risen with the recent tide. The market values GT cars; it’s on those cars that Porsche has built a reputation for modern cars that hold their value extraordinarily well.

Let’s be honest, if you drive a regular 911, money is most likely an object. Personally, I’ve driven them over and over and over because I love the idea of a really special car that can credibly be driven daily, but I’ve never come away from a drive sufficiently inspired to write the check. Based on how willingly dealers have been to wheel and deal over the years, I don’t think I’m alone in that. If you’re an enthusiast, you’re probably thinking “save the $50k” or “add $50k and get a GT3, and get a daily beater”. Or, you buy anyway simply to check the Porsche ownership box. Those cars are the M340i of that product line.

I had the opportunity to drive a base 992 Carrera 4 on track last year for multiple sessions. I was truly amazed by how good it was. While it felt underpowered compared to my M4cs, the chassis was absolute bliss to drive, with nimble and precise handling with telepathic response. Everything was super tactile with just the right amount of feedback. Porsche offers a wide variety of 911 so there is one to suit every need. For those that do not seek ultimate acceleration, even the base Carrera makes for a very enjoyable driving car.

[CanAutM3]

The best I can find to distinguish between the two:

The M3/4 is the sportiest practical car
The 911 is the most practical sports car

In my opinion at least...

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The best I can find to distinguish between the two:

The M3/4 is the sportiest practical car
The 911 is the most practical sports car

In my opinion at least...

I like this! I find this to be true.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Yep, I'm too poor to afford a new 911. Gee, darn. I was, for much of my life, too poor to afford an M3. I was once, 30+ years ago, too poor to afford a car that was less than 40% rust. 75k car or 135k car...both of them are too expensive for most people.

A friend of mine who makes a hair over the median wage for the area just bought her first new car at 45 years of age. A 23k Hyundai Kona. She has massive family expenses due to difficulties a few family members face and was so very thrilled to finally have a car that didn't have millions of miles and dents. She drove over to show it to me and insisted that I take it for a drive. I felt like I was driving a Fisher Price toy (the interior plastics are AWFUL). I did nothing but compliment it and really enjoyed seeing how happy she is.

Perspective is a wonderful thing.

This is exactly it. Most of my friends can barely afford a home now thanks to the current market situation. I have accumulated two relatively modern BMW's including an M plus a 911. None new but none were affordable either.

I let them drive my cars and when they bring theirs around excitedly asking me to drive them I am always genuinely excited to do so. I love all cars and know how to appreciate engineering accomplishments at all levels. My friend's Focus ST has an amazing clutch and gearbox. Who knew Ford could rival Honda in that department!

Also fun fact, if power were equal I'd prefer the S54 M engine over the 9A1 in my 991.1 for a weekender. The M just wants to rev and rev and rev, high and fast. 9A1 is tame in that regard. Just sounds so incredible and pulls consistently into triple digits is all

[xman11]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The best I can find to distinguish between the two:

The M3/4 is the sportiest practical car
The 911 is the most practical sports car

In my opinion at least...

For me:
The M3: I love them hips
The 911: I love them hips

And I also like strippers.

Most of my driving is done on local streets, which is why I have the mini.
Kinda like this guy: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Lrw4X8A6lQ...ini+Cooper.jpg

He probably liked strippers too...

[uniqueMR]

Both cars are in different leagues. There is no comparison.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by SpeedyJ

different strokes I guess. The 3.0tt motor in the 991/992 feel and sound blah compared to the na 3.8 and 4.0... those motor are bliss. The s58 is the first bmw turbo 6 that has a nice mature burley tone to it I love. I don't understand the people on their forum cutting off resonators etc to make it sound worse. But then again i have another loud car so I don't feel the need to make my m3 louder

I agree that the NA Porsche engines sound better, but my 991.2 with sport cats sounded proper good and got a lot of compliments, often times from M owners. I have never liked the turbo I6 engine sound...really ghastly and cheap sounding IMO.
My 718 GT4 sounds bonkers, especially with the full Akrapovic exhaust.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

I'm getting a 992 C2S and am not paying over MSRP, nor are others on here that are getting 992s…..

Also, that is for an ordered car and euro delivery in the fall.

All the G80s and allocations for G80s within a couple 100 miles of me are all marked up $10-20k.

Agree on all your other points. Also, a 911 C2S is the only non-GT luxury sports car that holds 70%+ of its value over three years (assuming you don't option it to something ridiculous like over $145k).

I wouldn't pay over...in fact I pay under on GT cars

Fact is, though, plenty of people are paying over for most 911s. Used 992 Turbo S are going 30,40,50K over. Targas are going 30-40K over. GT4s and Spyders are 10-20K over.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by uniqueMR

Both cars are in different leagues. There is no comparison.

Yet, they have kept being compared over multiple decades. There’s a reason why.

[Der_Wolf]

LOL this thread sounds like one of those real housewives shows my wife watches

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I had the opportunity to drive a base 992 Carrera 4 on track last year for multiple sessions. I was truly amazed by how good it was. While it felt underpowered compared to my M4cs, the chassis was absolute bliss to drive, with nimble and precise handling with telepathic response. Everything was super tactile with just the right amount of feedback. Porsche offers a wide variety of 911 so there is one to suit every need. For those that do not seek ultimate acceleration, even the base Carrera makes for a very enjoyable driving car.

They’re fantastic products. In the context of a marketplace full of options, 911 and 911 S have always represented suboptimal value for me. That’s with money being an object in my case. Specced the way I’d like them (just played with the S configurator; a satisfactory car with a lot of goodies left out still crossed $160k), they’re knocking loudly on the door of low-spec GT3 prices and they actually depreciate at a pretty standard rate (again, until very recently). To me, the S value prop is the most compelling in those 18-24 months before the same-gen GT3 release. Otherwise, it’s always made more sense to me to go all in on “weekend” and ante up for a more special car + true daily combo.

That’s my counterpoint to the guy who said people who won’t pay for the privilege of daily-driving a cramped cabin for multiple passengers with few amenities and insufficient trunk space are poors who can’t afford the experience.

Originally Posted by uniqueMR

Both cars are in different leagues. There is no comparison.

This generation, they’re more comparable than they’ve ever been. See the OP.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

They're fantastic products. In the context of a marketplace full of options, 911 and 911 S have always represented suboptimal value for me. That's with money being an object in my case. Specced the way I'd like them (just played with the S configurator; a satisfactory car with a lot of goodies left out still crossed $160k), they're knocking loudly on the door of low-spec GT3 prices and they actually depreciate at a pretty standard rate (again, until very recently). To me, the S value prop is the most compelling in those 18-24 months before the same-gen GT3 release. Otherwise, it's always made more sense to me to go all in on "weekend" and ante up for a more special car + true daily combo.

That's my counterpoint to the guy who said people who won't pay for the privilege of daily-driving a cramped cabin for multiple passengers with few amenities and insufficient trunk space are poors who can't afford the experience.

This generation, they're more comparable than they've ever been. See the OP.

On your first point, if you are optioning it up to a $160k you must be ticking at least like $25k to $35k of completely bullshit options, most from Porsche's version of bmw individual. If I knew we were doing that, I could easily option up 120k G8X with individual options.

I'm of the strong opinion, like many other enthusiasts who aren't just speccing to throw away money, that $137-140k is max on these cars to be considered worth their value. It's definitely a $135k driving experience, but it's definitely not a $150k+ driving experience for the C2S.

On your second point, this is one magazine that made them a tie. I doubt many others would come to the same conclusion. If you want to know what the difference is, drive both and see. If you don't come away with that getting it and then engage in the exercise of having to justify why the G8X is more practical despite really deeply wanting the 911 as you're excuse for not getting the C2S, then I'd be surprised because you'd be in the minority I would imagine.

Listen I think we can all agree the G8X is capable and a nice step forward in terms of performance ability. But they are just different cars for different purposes/experience. Anybody who says the driving experience is identical or a wash probably hasn't driven both, and if they have, they value different things than I do apparently.

At the end of the day there is a reason half of Rennlist list is former M owners

Edit: Man, after re reading what I wrote above, if that isn't subjective opinion I don't know what is lol.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

On your first point, if you are optioning it up to a $160k you must be ticking at least like $25k to $35k of completely bullshit options, most from Porsche's version of bmw individual. If I knew we were doing that, I could easily option up 120k G8X with individual options.

I'm of the strong opinion, like many other enthusiasts who aren't just speccing to throw away money, that $137-140k is max on these cars to be considered worth their value. It's definitely a $135k driving experience, but it's definitely not a $150k+ driving experience for the C2S.

On your second point, this is one magazine that made them a tie. I doubt many others would come to the same conclusion. If you want to know what the difference is, drive both and see. If you don't come away with that getting it and then engage in the exercise of having to justify why the G8X is more practical despite really deeply wanting the 911 as you're excuse for not getting the C2S, then I'd be surprised because you'd be in the minority I would imagine.

Listen I think we can all agree the G8X is capable and a nice step forward in terms of performance ability. But they are just different cars for different purposes/experience. Anybody who says the driving experience is identical or a wash probably hasn't driven both, and if they have, they value different things than I do apparently.

At the end of the day there is a reason have of Reenlist list is former M owners

Edit: Man, after re reading what I wrote above, if that isn't subjective opinion I don't know what is lol.

On top of the main packages and an extinguisher, I added the beautiful Aerokit and CF roof. That's ~$11k right there.

It's actually been a couple of years since I've driven the 992. I saw a pre-prod unit first at Rennsport Reunion in late 2018, then drove one a few months later. My feeling at the time was that I'd rather have a used 991 GT3 (again, money being a factor and the 992 not living in a vacuum). While I'm pretty confident in my recollection of the driving experience, you've convinced me to find one to drive and update my opinion.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The 911 is significantly more expensive than the G8X, that is without question. A fully loaded G8X will intersect with a stripper base 992, but that's it. The M3/4 are much more practical and performance bargains. However, the 992 is a hell of an engineering masterpiece and pure driver's delight. If it's worth the cost depends on each's priorities.

Significantly more expensive, but as mentioned, significantly rarer (and harder to get) and hold value significantly better.
Now, Porsches have never been the best bang for your buck but they don't need to be, and at the same time still provide unquestionable value in their price range.
Furthermore, the M3 tends to be great value, but at the same time, there are cases where something like a Mustang GT or Camaro SS offer the same or close performance for much less.
You can likely always find a cheaper product that performs nearly as well, but money aside, everyone knows the more desirable one that if given the choice they'd take.

Honestly, I find this generation M3 to be pretty compelling for what it offers despite not being a great car to look at. I do think it's a good choice for an all in one car especially with AWD where I find the M5/M8 models to be too large and uninspiring to drive.

[vetteflier]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You’ve driven a 992 GT3 ?

Ooops...991.2 It was a 2017 owned by a friend.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by SpeedyJ

I have a 5 year old/18 month old and my wife is petite/5'5 and couldn't fit in the front when my kids were in the back, mainly due to the rear facing seat. The 992 backseat is pretty awful for anything but short trips and the frunk surely can't fit a normal size stroller let alone a stroller plus appreciable luggage. Again I would hesitate to use the finances argument because a lot of my friends with huracans, turbos, and other sports cars are leasing g80s as dailys. Also, not to burst ur bubble but a turbo and a gt3 make the c2s feel flat.

I agree - the 7 speed is good, certainly better than any other 6 speed I've driven from anyone else, but the 6 speed is truly a life changing driving experience.

[SpeedyJ]

Originally Posted by vetteflier

Ooops...991.2 It was a 2017 owned by a friend.

No such thing as a 2017 gt3

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by SpeedyJ

No such thing as a 2017 gt3

The plot thickens.

[SickGTR]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I agree - the 7 speed is good, certainly better than any other 6 speed I've driven from anyone else, but the 6 speed is truly a life changing driving experience.

My buddies GT3 is manual. It's so bad ass to drive. The sound is just magic. I think he just has an Xpipe or some type of small exhaust mod and it's bonkers

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

On your first point, if you are optioning it up to a $160k you must be ticking at least like $25k to $35k of completely bullshit options, most from Porsche's version of bmw individual. If I knew we were doing that, I could easily option up 120k G8X with individual options.

I'm of the strong opinion, like many other enthusiasts who aren't just speccing to throw away money, that $137-140k is max on these cars to be considered worth their value. It's definitely a $135k driving experience, but it's definitely not a $150k+ driving experience for the C2S.

On your second point, this is one magazine that made them a tie. I doubt many others would come to the same conclusion. If you want to know what the difference is, drive both and see. If you don't come away with that getting it and then engage in the exercise of having to justify why the G8X is more practical despite really deeply wanting the 911 as you're excuse for not getting the C2S, then I'd be surprised because you'd be in the minority I would imagine.

Listen I think we can all agree the G8X is capable and a nice step forward in terms of performance ability. But they are just different cars for different purposes/experience. Anybody who says the driving experience is identical or a wash probably hasn't driven both, and if they have, they value different things than I do apparently.

At the end of the day there is a reason have of Reenlist list is former M owners

Edit: Man, after re reading what I wrote above, if that isn't subjective opinion I don't know what is lol.

I agree about your sweet spot price. In fact, it may be lower if you don't want the $7k AeroKit. $128-130k could be the even sweeter spot. The CS is absolutely worth it at that price point.

[vetteflier]

Originally Posted by SpeedyJ

No such thing as a 2017 gt3

Really.

https://www.autoevolution.com/cars/p...-40-6mt-500-hp

991.2 GT3 2017–2019 3,996 500 PS (368 kW; 493 hp) 460 N⋅m (339 lbf⋅ft) 1,430 kg (3,153 lb) (PDK)
1,413 kg (3,115 lb) (manual) 9,500 3.4 seconds (PDK)
3.9 seconds (manual) 318 km/h (198 mph) (PDK)
320 km/h (199 mph) (manual)

Could have fooled my friend who bought it in 2018.