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      06-17-2022, 03:19 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
15s on a 20.8km track though.
The M4 CSL is 110kg lighter than the M4 Competition, here we also have xDrive (+50kg) and Touring (+60kg), so around 220kg more, 40hp less and more powertrain loss.
Michelin claims than the advantage of the Cup2r over the Cup2 is about 0.5s/km, maybe a bit less at Nurburgring but still considerable.
With the same tires, the time would be dangerously close.
Now consider a 4/5km racetrack, not a great deal for the "light" and expensive CSL.
While 15s is an eternity even on the NordSchleife I agree that the difference ought to be a bit larger taken the Cup Rs and power to weight advantage of the CSL. Either the 7:15 is a bit of a sandbag lap or it will be interesting to see a same day dyno on a CSL and M4C. Maybe the to the ground difference is less than 40 hp.
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      06-17-2022, 03:42 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
While 15s is an eternity even on the NordSchleife I agree that the difference ought to be a bit larger taken the Cup Rs and power to weight advantage of the CSL. Either the 7:15 is a bit of a sandbag lap or it will be interesting to see a same day dyno on a CSL and M4C. Maybe the to the ground difference is less than 40 hp.
Bmw claims 100-200 km/h in 7s for the CSL, about 1 second faster than the regular M4 (8.6s according to Bmw, ~8s tested), which is a lot, so the power seems to be there.
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      06-17-2022, 03:45 PM   #25
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very strange short shifting behaviour by Jorg

at the last part on the long straight going uphill he short shifted to 7th and the car basically hit a wall and stopped accelerating when the momentum was lost.

had he kept it in 6th i would love to see if it matches the M4C which hit 289 at the welcome home sign
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      06-17-2022, 03:48 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
While 15s is an eternity even on the NordSchleife I agree that the difference ought to be a bit larger taken the Cup Rs and power to weight advantage of the CSL. Either the 7:15 is a bit of a sandbag lap or it will be interesting to see a same day dyno on a CSL and M4C. Maybe the to the ground difference is less than 40 hp.
not to mention the short shifting behaviour.

after such extensive testing there must be a reason for this?

"Fahr nicht schneller als die M drei[3]"
don't drive faster than the M3 csl

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Last edited by G80M4; 06-17-2022 at 04:54 PM..
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      06-17-2022, 03:53 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
Bmw claims 100-200 km/h in 7s for the CSL, about 1 second faster than the regular M4 (8.6s according to Bmw, ~8s tested), which is a lot, so the power seems to be there.
Power to weight will do that at any hp number while the absolute hp number is more important for terminal speed on that long straight which can mean seconds.
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      06-17-2022, 08:25 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G80M4 View Post
very strange short shifting behaviour by Jorg

at the last part on the long straight going uphill he short shifted to 7th and the car basically hit a wall and stopped accelerating when the momentum was lost.

had he kept it in 6th i would love to see if it matches the M4C which hit 289 at the welcome home sign
This is common when there's more power in the mid range. The car will be faster as there is more power under the curve. Dyno your car and drag race shifting at redline, then shift at a point that yields the most power. I promise you that the shift points will be crucial in finding speed and keeping temperatures down, yielding even more power for longer.
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      06-18-2022, 09:06 PM   #29
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Very impressive time, on par with upcoming Civic type r.......salute to German engineering
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      06-18-2022, 10:45 PM   #30
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not

Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
This puts the M4 CSL to shame.

you should look up that lap time on the csl....
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      06-19-2022, 01:49 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ibmc View Post
you should look up that lap time on the csl....
The words of someone who knows the Ring quite well (min 7:40).
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      06-19-2022, 01:52 AM   #32
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you should look up that lap time on the csl....
He has I’m sure, the 7:16 CSL time is massively faster at the surface but when you factor in that the tires are very different something doesn’t seem right with the CSL time.

It’s observed that the Cup 2 R is up to 0.5s faster per kilometer than the Cup 2. That’s 10s on Nordschleife. Porsche’s hot shoe Lars Kern agree, he had this to say about the Cup 2 R on the 992 GT3:

“Of course, a lot of the new GT3's 'Ring time improvement comes down to the optional Cup 2 R tires. But Kerns says simply swapping those tires onto the old GT3 wouldn't get you anywhere near the new car's 17-second-per-lap improvement. Even on the less-aggressive Cup 2s, Kern estimates the new GT3 should be "at least" seven or eight seconds quicker than the old GT3”

This would make the CSL 4s faster than the M3 Touring on the same tires. It doesn’t seem enough with the power, weight, aero and cog advantages of the CSL.

It become even more strange when you compare with the M4C Sport Auto time of 7:31. A 15s gap to the CSL. If the R tires is a 10s gain and the factory vs Sport Auto driver difference is similar to the 9s it was for the M4 GTS’s ring time, well then the M4C would be faster with some margin than the CSL on the same tires…

It seems that maybe the Cup 2 * tire could be much closer to the Cup 2 R than we think or BMW has sandbagged the CSL factory time. Something is off.
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      06-19-2022, 02:22 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
He has Iím sure, the 7:16 CSL time is massively faster at the surface but when you factor in that the tires are very different something doesnít seem right with the CSL time.

Itís observed that the Cup 2 R is up to 0.5s faster per kilometer than the Cup 2. Thatís 10s on Nordschleife. Porscheís hot shoe Lars Kern agree, he had this to say about the Cup 2 R on the 992 GT3:

ďOf course, a lot of the new GT3's 'Ring time improvement comes down to the optional Cup 2 R tires. But Kerns says simply swapping those tires onto the old GT3 wouldn't get you anywhere near the new car's 17-second-per-lap improvement. Even on the less-aggressive Cup 2s, Kern estimates the new GT3 should be "at least" seven or eight seconds quicker than the old GT3Ē

This would make the CSL 4s faster than the M3 Touring on the same tires. It doesnít seem enough with the power, weight, aero and cog advantages of the CSL.

It become even more strange when you compare with the M4C Sport Auto time of 7:31. A 15s gap to the CSL. If the R tires is a 10s gain and the factory vs Sport Auto driver difference is similar to the 9s it was for the M4 GTSís ring time, well then the M4C would be faster with some margin than the CSL on the same tiresÖ

It seems that maybe the Cup 2 * tire could be much closer to the Cup 2 R than we think or BMW has sandbagged the CSL factory time. Something is off.
Good point.
I'm more on the theory that the M3/4's times are great for everyday road cars (which they are, from coupe to touring) and kill all competitors, but rather poor as true track cars (M4 CSL), which means that starting from a road car you can't achieve too much on the track, even with massive work and fine tuning it's physically impossible to turn a 3-series into a track car (mainly due to weight and weight balance).
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      06-19-2022, 03:10 AM   #34
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But does this really explain the only "marginal" difference between M4 CSL and M3 waggon?
It would explain, why a M4CSL with any effort you put into would hardly reach a pure sportscar (like 992 GT3) ... but why doesn't pay all the effort put into the CSL over the touring (weight, tires, power, aero) out more? Since several informed people are asking this (see your posted video) I think this is a valid question! Will be interessted, whch time Christian Gebhardt does in the M4CSL supertest.
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      06-19-2022, 03:47 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
Good point.
I'm more on the theory that the M3/4's times are great for everyday road cars (which they are, from coupe to touring) and kill all competitors, but rather poor as true track cars (M4 CSL), which means that starting from a road car you can't achieve too much on the track, even with massive work and fine tuning it's physically impossible to turn a 3-series into a track car (mainly due to weight and weight balance).
i believe (from watching people turn their M4 into track cars) it's as simple as removing weight and tuning the suspension and using track tires.
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      06-19-2022, 03:48 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
VIERsr
But does this really explain the only "marginal" difference between M4 CSL and M3 waggon?
It would explain, why a M4CSL with any effort you put into would hardly reach a pure sportscar (like 992 GT3) ... but why doesn't pay all the effort put into the CSL over the touring (weight, tires, power, aero) out more? Since several informed people are asking this (see your posted video) I think this is a valid question! Will be interessted, whch time Christian Gebhardt does in the M4CSL supertest.
according to youtuber Mischa Charoudin the M3 Touring was driven at the limit and the M4CSL was not at the limit.
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      06-19-2022, 06:55 AM   #37
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I think an M4X on Cup2Rs would be faster than CSL. CSL had a lot of time part throttle when Xdrive would just put down all available power. CSL is lighter and more power but RWD can only get you so much corner exit speed.
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      06-19-2022, 11:53 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G80M4 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
VIERsr
But does this really explain the only "marginal" difference between M4 CSL and M3 waggon?
It would explain, why a M4CSL with any effort you put into would hardly reach a pure sportscar (like 992 GT3) ... but why doesn't pay all the effort put into the CSL over the touring (weight, tires, power, aero) out more? Since several informed people are asking this (see your posted video) I think this is a valid question! Will be interessted, whch time Christian Gebhardt does in the M4CSL supertest.
according to youtuber Mischa Charoudin the M3 Touring was driven at the limit and the M4CSL was not at the limit.
The goal for the CSL was to be the fastest production BMW. There is really no benefit beyond that. It was never going to be close to the GT3 despite the rumors. The touring goal was the M3, to prove it deserves the badge. I'm fully expecting better results from the CSL, akin to how the M5CS surprised. That's the game nowadays, to provoke the influencers by setting a calculated expectation and have them blow it up.
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      06-19-2022, 05:16 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIERsr View Post
Good point.
I'm more on the theory that the M3/4's times are great for everyday road cars (which they are, from coupe to touring) and kill all competitors, but rather poor as true track cars (M4 CSL), which means that starting from a road car you can't achieve too much on the track, even with massive work and fine tuning it's physically impossible to turn a 3-series into a track car (mainly due to weight and weight balance).
The amplitude and frequency of forces on the chassis during a 7:16 lap is vastly different from a 7:30 lap so you might be right to some degree. To me the CSL looked pretty terrible in the video with huge brake dive at corner entry and unsettled bouncing while cornering. It could be that they reached the limit of the M suspension at 7:15 without risking to stick it in the trees. I donít agree that it canít be addressed if thatís whatís going on here, a set of high quality coilovers built for these speeds should take care of it. Maybe thereís another 5-10s that could have been unlocked that way but it made the car a hateful thing on the street and BMW decided against it.

I still think thereís a chance of some sandbagging here.
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      06-20-2022, 02:03 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The amplitude and frequency of forces on the chassis during a 7:16 lap is vastly different from a 7:30 lap so you might be right to some degree. To me the CSL looked pretty terrible in the video with huge brake dive at corner entry and unsettled bouncing while cornering. It could be that they reached the limit of the M suspension at 7:15 without risking to stick it in the trees. I don’t agree that it can’t be addressed if that’s what’s going on here, a set of high quality coilovers built for these speeds should take care of it. Maybe there’s another 5-10s that could have been unlocked that way but it made the car a hateful thing on the street and BMW decided against it.

I still think there’s a chance of some sandbagging here.
With a set of coilovers every car would improve, even the regular M3/4
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      06-20-2022, 02:26 AM   #41
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just looked up the Autosport driver in question. turns out he is a 4 time 24hrs Nurburgring race winner ...

so this guy drives around the ring faster while he's asleep than when most people can do when they're awake

https://www.driverdb.com/drivers/christian-gebhardt/

Last edited by G80M4; 06-20-2022 at 02:37 AM..
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      06-20-2022, 02:29 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rslavujevic View Post
Very impressive time, on par with upcoming Civic type r.......salute to German engineering
FWD Hot hatch vs ("small") Family wagon!

but yes I am surprised at the abilities of Japanese FWD, how they have matured over the years no doubt thanks to racing experience
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      06-20-2022, 02:04 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The amplitude and frequency of forces on the chassis during a 7:16 lap is vastly different from a 7:30 lap so you might be right to some degree. To me the CSL looked pretty terrible in the video with huge brake dive at corner entry and unsettled bouncing while cornering. It could be that they reached the limit of the M suspension at 7:15 without risking to stick it in the trees. I don’t agree that it can’t be addressed if that’s what’s going on here, a set of high quality coilovers built for these speeds should take care of it. Maybe there’s another 5-10s that could have been unlocked that way but it made the car a hateful thing on the street and BMW decided against it.

I still think there’s a chance of some sandbagging here.
not a nurburgring race driver so i don't know

i watched the start of the CSL vs Touring

in the first 30s alone, the CSL was pulling a max 1.8G in corners while the Touring maxed at 1.5G
CSL consistently between 1.4-1.6G while Touring 1.2-1.4G

i think there is no comparison here. the CSL feels so easy while the Touring was getting wrestled against understeer is what those numbers are telling me.

Last edited by G80M4; 06-20-2022 at 02:10 PM..
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      06-20-2022, 03:10 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G80M4 View Post
not a nurburgring race driver so i don't know

i watched the start of the CSL vs Touring

in the first 30s alone, the CSL was pulling a max 1.8G in corners while the Touring maxed at 1.5G
CSL consistently between 1.4-1.6G while Touring 1.2-1.4G

i think there is no comparison here. the CSL feels so easy while the Touring was getting wrestled against understeer is what those numbers are telling me.
There’s no doubt the CSL is superior in so many/every way. That’s not the question, rather it’s the opposite. The math doesn’t add up when considering all those advantages, something is off since it should be even faster when the huge tire advantage and very significant power to weight difference is considered.
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