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      05-09-2020, 11:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdiddy23 View Post
The G80 will be properly quick in any guise. M340 is already really quick. G80 will be almost super car quick and at a fair price
No. It will be fast but not quick.

We describe powerful and laggy cars as fast.

We describe responsive and nimble cars as quick.

Fast is more about peak power, quick is how quickly you get there.

G80 will be fast.
G20 340i is quick.
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      05-10-2020, 09:09 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
No. It will be fast but not quick.

We describe powerful and laggy cars as fast.

We describe responsive and nimble cars as quick.

Fast is more about peak power, quick is how quickly you get there.

G80 will be fast.
G20 340i is quick.
G80 will get to 60 quicker than G20, but G20 is quick?

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      05-10-2020, 05:17 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by 'Cane View Post
G80 will get to 60 quicker than G20, but G20 is quick?

Yeah, I don't get it either.
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      05-10-2020, 08:07 PM   #26
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"Quick" : Definition - "moving fast or doing something in a short time."
"Fast" : Definition - "moving or capable of moving at high speed."

As far as I can tell, this means G80 will be quicker than G20.
AND
As far as I can tell, this means G80 and G20 will both be fast.

The things we nitpick over on this forum...
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      05-14-2020, 12:55 PM   #27
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Well I put together a table of past caranddriver tests and here are my estimates below for upcoming G8x. I think it'll have almost same performance stats as current 911 S.

Btw, 0-60 is just a single data point and doesn't tell a lot in these days. Many low hp cars can get to 60 around 4 seconds thanks to turbos and efficient gearboxes but many run out of steam afterwards because of power deficit. That's why I look at 0-100, 0-150 mph results, and I look at delta between 0-60 test and 5-60 test for turbo lag (EVs suffer the least in this)

Just for s. and giggles, I added two supercars to the list. You can see how much faster 720s compared to Huracan at high speeds even though 0-60 tells the opposite. Although Lambo and Mclaren both even until 100MPH, 720s disappears into stratosphere above 100MPH. For mclaren, It takes 17.5s to reach 180MPH while huracan needs another 5.7 seconds to reach that speed.
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      05-14-2020, 02:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XsltAnalyst View Post
Well I put together a table of past caranddriver tests and here are my estimates below for upcoming G8x. I think it'll have almost same performance stats as current 911 S.

Btw, 0-60 is just a single data point and doesn't tell a lot in these days. Many low hp cars can get to 60 around 4 seconds thanks to turbos and efficient gearboxes but many run out of steam afterwards because of power deficit. That's why I look at 0-100, 0-150 mph results, and I look at delta between 0-60 test and 5-60 test for turbo lag (EVs suffer the least in this)

Just for s. and giggles, I added two supercars to the list. You can see how much faster 720s compared to Huracan at high speeds even though 0-60 tells the opposite. Although Lambo and Mclaren both even until 100MPH, 720s disappears into stratosphere above 100MPH. For mclaren, It takes 17.5s to reach 180MPH while huracan needs another 5.7 seconds to reach that speed.
You clearly seriously underestimate what it takes to make 125mph in 1/4 mile...
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      05-14-2020, 02:38 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
You clearly seriously underestimate what it takes to make 125mph in 1/4 mile...
So what are your estimates then?

Nobody knows until car and driver tests the car for sake of consistency. Once that happens, I'll come back to this post to see how my estimates turn out.

My estimates were simply a copy/paste from 911S, since it'll have almost identical hp/weight ratio

X3M is already hitting 11.6 @ 119MPH so G8x M3 with 700-800lb less weight should be close to my estimates when it comes to 1/4 mile and acceleration figures
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      05-14-2020, 05:25 PM   #30
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It's going to be a very low 11 second quarter in my humble opinion. Without going into a diatribe of bench racing stats, it has to be fast enough to beat a model 3 performance but not so fast that it cannibalizes their own M5. And when Tesla comes out with another software update, BMW will be waiting with a Competition version. Haha, we're so close now.
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      05-16-2020, 12:36 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XsltAnalyst View Post
Well I put together a table of past caranddriver tests and here are my estimates below for upcoming G8x. I think it'll have almost same performance stats as current 911 S.

Btw, 0-60 is just a single data point and doesn't tell a lot in these days. Many low hp cars can get to 60 around 4 seconds thanks to turbos and efficient gearboxes but many run out of steam afterwards because of power deficit. That's why I look at 0-100, 0-150 mph results, and I look at delta between 0-60 test and 5-60 test for turbo lag (EVs suffer the least in this)

Just for s. and giggles, I added two supercars to the list. You can see how much faster 720s compared to Huracan at high speeds even though 0-60 tells the opposite. Although Lambo and Mclaren both even until 100MPH, 720s disappears into stratosphere above 100MPH. For mclaren, It takes 17.5s to reach 180MPH while huracan needs another 5.7 seconds to reach that speed.

3,850lbs for the all wheel drive version? According to the difference between the 340 with Xdrive and without that means that the non Xdrive M3 will weigh 120 lbs less.

So 3730lbs, compared to the F80 which according to C&D weighs ~3,500lbs.

How the hell is this car gaining 200lbs+?
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      05-19-2020, 10:20 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
... it has to be fast enough to beat a model 3 performance but not so fast that it cannibalizes their own M5...
Exactly, and there's not much daylight there, given that the Model 3 Performance runs 11.4...
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      05-19-2020, 02:25 PM   #33
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The new M3/4 in the most aggressive form (pure, plus, power...portly - whatever you want to call it) out the starting gates will be 3 flat in mag tests. It has to be because of the TM3P. The fact that the X3MC is 3.3 lends credence to that.
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      05-20-2020, 09:30 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
It's going to be a very low 11 second quarter in my humble opinion. Without going into a diatribe of bench racing stats, it has to be fast enough to beat a model 3 performance but not so fast that it cannibalizes their own M5. And when Tesla comes out with another software update, BMW will be waiting with a Competition version. Haha, we're so close now.
So I "get" it but I also actually don't get how an M3 cannibalizes M5 sales. Yes they're shaped similarly and carry 5 people but they seem like their target markets are very different. M5 older and generally for folks with families, M3 younger, single/no kids.

I get this argument when we talk about Porsche not wanting to cannibalize sales of their 911 with the 718 because you could cross shop the two. It just seems crazy to me that people might be cross shopping an M5 and M3. Could be totally missing something though.
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      05-20-2020, 11:45 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duky View Post
So I "get" it but I also actually don't get how an M3 cannibalizes M5 sales. Yes they're shaped similarly and carry 5 people but they seem like their target markets are very different. M5 older and generally for folks with families, M3 younger, single/no kids.

I get this argument when we talk about Porsche not wanting to cannibalize sales of their 911 with the 718 because you could cross shop the two. It just seems crazy to me that people might be cross shopping an M5 and M3. Could be totally missing something though.
I have an F90 M5. Considering a G80 M3 Pure (MT) when my current lease is done (3/2022).

I have 4 kids ages 4, 7, 9, 11. Other car is the wife's X5 w/ 3rd row.

I use my M5 for going to work, dropping the kids off at school (but never more than 3 at a time given their spread in ages), dates with the wife, grocery shopping, errands, etc. Never need it to carry our entire family.

Would love to have that manual transmission in the M3 again. That would really amp the driving engagement which the M5 is missing. And I'm sure I can fit 3 kids comfortably in an M3 (ages 6-13 by that point). Oldest son loves the front seat ever since he "upgraded" from the back seat!
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      05-20-2020, 12:10 PM   #36
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I doubt BMW will deliberately hold back the performance of the M3 to “protect” the M5 on the strip. I don’t think they have to due to the advantage the M5 have at speed when power to push through air trumps the lower weight of the M3. Even if a quick initial jump of the M3 will get the time close the M5 will always have the trap speed to claim.
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      05-20-2020, 02:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I doubt BMW will deliberately hold back the performance of the M3 to "protect" the M5 on the strip. I don't think they have to due to the advantage the M5 have at speed when power to push through air trumps the lower weight of the M3. Even if a quick initial jump of the M3 will get the time close the M5 will always have the trap speed to claim.
For what it's worth, the F80 M3 had a faster published 0-60 time (4.0-4.1 seconds per BMW) than the same time-period F10 M5 (4.4 seconds per BMW).

So it's conceivable BMW would "allow" the new G80 M3 to have a 0-60 time close to the F90 M5.

That's why I wouldn't doubt to see BMW publish 0-60 times of AT LEAST:

4.0/3.6/3.5 for Pure/Base/Comp
or perhaps even a tenth or two faster.
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      05-20-2020, 02:52 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weingarm View Post
For what it's worth, the F80 M3 had a faster published 0-60 time (4.0-4.1 seconds per BMW) than the same time-period F10 M5 (4.4 seconds per BMW).

So it's conceivable BMW would "allow" the new G80 M3 to have a 0-60 time close to the F90 M5.

That's why I wouldn't doubt to see BMW publish 0-60 times of AT LEAST:

4.0/3.6/3.5 for Pure/Base/Comp
or perhaps even a tenth or two faster.
Agreed that this is a good estimate of published numbers.
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      05-29-2020, 09:09 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola3 View Post
3,850lbs for the all wheel drive version? According to the difference between the 340 with Xdrive and without that means that the non Xdrive M3 will weigh 120 lbs less.

So 3730lbs, compared to the F80 which according to C&D weighs ~3,500lbs.

How the hell is this car gaining 200lbs+?
Yes, 2016 M3 comp was 3650 in c&d testing, as I had listed in the table. So extra 200lbs for a fully loaded G80 comp pack press car is a conservative estimate, given the AWD, ZF8 speed (weighs 20-30 lbs more than DCT)and other extra standard features and safety equipment that comes with a new gen
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      06-02-2020, 09:33 PM   #40
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G22 430i gains minimal weight on the F32 430i - good indications for the G82?

- The 2020 430i is listed at 3574 lbs.
- The 2021 430i is listed at 3578 lbs.

Caveat, the 2020 is bmwusa listed weight and 2021 is bimmerpost listed weight from press release.

Seems promising that the weight of basic platform and tech. that will go into the G82 seems no worse than what went into the F82.

I selected the 430i since the 2021 M440i is now a mild hybrid which might not be a good comparison to the 2020 440i of that reason.

What do you think?
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      06-03-2020, 06:20 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I selected the 430i since the 2021 M440i is now a mild hybrid which might not be a good comparison to the 2020 440i of that reason.

What do you think?
I think that’s a terrible basis for comparison because the extra weight from the additional two cylinders dwarfs the extra weight from the mild hybrid system. Now add in the second turbocharger the S58 has and its plumbing and you have easily caught up to the mild hybrid-equipped B58. Furthermore, most M4s are likely to be AWD since the traction benefit, particularly from a dig, will be very compelling. If it weren’t the case, they’d not be bothering with the feature.

How does the weight of the G22 M440i xDrive compare to that of the F32 440i sDrive? That's likely the more telling number when it comes to how much weight gain the typical M4 will see. Of course the RWD 6MT M4 will be significantly lighter than an AWD 8AT M4, so that's not to be overlooked either.

Another data point: the X3 M and X4 M outweigh their X3 M40i and X4 M40i counterparts by a couple hundred pounds or more. Now, one could also point out that the M5 and M8 weigh less than the M550i and M850i respectively. However, the X5 M and X6 M also weigh less than the X5 M50i and X6 M50i. So the lighter weights of the M models would appear to be due to some effort M Division has put into the larger more premium iteration of the CLAR matrix or perhaps the weight of the S63 as compared to the N63. In other words the advantage is not that the M5/M8 are cars whereas the X3/X4 M are SUVs because it also applies to the X5/X6 M.

Irrespective of all of the above, the M440i xDrive weighs just a touch under 4000 pounds and is less than three inches shorter than an 840i Coupe. Frankly, it’s scary heavy and shockingly large. That’s my honest feedback, not trying to rain on your parade.
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      06-03-2020, 10:32 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I think that’s a terrible basis for comparison because the extra weight from the additional two cylinders dwarfs the extra weight from the mild hybrid system. Now add in the second turbocharger the S58 has and its plumbing and you have easily caught up to the mild hybrid-equipped B58. Furthermore, most M4s are likely to be AWD since the traction benefit, particularly from a dig, will be very compelling. If it weren’t the case, they’d not be bothering with the feature.

How does the weight of the G22 M440i xDrive compare to that of the F32 440i sDrive? That's likely the more telling number when it comes to how much weight gain the typical M4 will see. Of course the RWD 6MT M4 will be significantly lighter than an AWD 8AT M4, so that's not to be overlooked either.

Another data point: the X3 M and X4 M outweigh their X3 M40i and X4 M40i counterparts by a couple hundred pounds or more. Now, one could also point out that the M5 and M8 weigh less than the M550i and M850i respectively. However, the X5 M and X6 M also weigh less than the X5 M50i and X6 M50i. So the lighter weights of the M models would appear to be due to some effort M Division has put into the larger more premium iteration of the CLAR matrix or perhaps the weight of the S63 as compared to the N63. In other words the advantage is not that the M5/M8 are cars whereas the X3/X4 M are SUVs because it also applies to the X5/X6 M.

Irrespective of all of the above, the M440i xDrive weighs just a touch under 4000 pounds and is less than three inches shorter than an 840i Coupe. Frankly, it’s scary heavy and shockingly large. That’s my honest feedback, not trying to rain on your parade.
No worries, I asked for your thoughts. What good would it be if you weren’t giving your honest input and instead just agreed with mine?

Reading your comment I still guess that the G82 M4 RWD’s weight could be close to the F82 based on what I posted above IF it skips the mild hybrid system. The M-Xdrive will of course have a weight penalty.

BMW managed to make the lightest F82 only 50 lbs heavier than the F32 430i (listed weight) added cylinder counts and all. I don’t see a good technical reason in your thoughts why they can’t or will not do it again. One technical aspect of interest is the weight of the S58 vs the S55, would you know?

I see that the new 4 series platform G22 seems to have gained only 4 lbs on the old 4 series the F32 in an as close to apples to apples comparison as we can get from the released models as impressive and a good sign.

Last edited by solstice; 06-03-2020 at 11:09 AM..
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      06-03-2020, 11:12 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
IF it skips the mild hybrid system
I somewhat doubt that BMW will update the S58 with the mild hybrid system at this point - I think they'll use the same version that's in the F97/F98 for now. However, I still think that while the hybrid system has obviously added weight to the B58, it is pretty simple in its implementation and its omission will largely be offset by the additional turbocharger/ducting/etc. that the S58 adds vs. the B58.

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...4#post26228154

And not everything in that diagram is added content. Much of it is merely substituted for what would otherwise have been the 12V parts. Admittedly, I don't know enough about it to comment with any further detail than that.

Quote:
BMW managed to make the lightest F82 only 50 lbs heavier than the F32 430i (listed weight) added cylinder counts and all.
Is that really the case? That sounds too good to be true.

What about the F32 440i? Surely it must weigh more than the F32 430i.

Quote:
One technical aspect of interest is the weight of the S58 vs the S55, would you know?
I have no idea, but I'd imagine they are within 50 lbs of one another.

Another other big contributor to drivetrain weight is the transmission, and I don't know how much the 8AT weighs in comparison to the 7DCT either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I see that the new 4 series platform G22 seems to have gained only 4 lbs on the old 4 series the F32 in an as close to apples to apples comparison as we can get from the released models as impressive and a good sign.
I think it's wishful thinking to focus only on the 430i and ignore the M440i completely. Yes, the M440i has the mild hybrid system, but it also now weighs nearly 4000 lb. Surely you do not believe all of the additional weight is due to 48V. That's all but certain not to be the case.
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      06-03-2020, 11:22 AM   #44
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Some numbers that stood out to me....

Size
5.2" longer, 1" wider, .5" taller (only 2" longer than 3 series)

Weight
430i 3,578lbs, 430Xdrive 3,708lbs, M440 Xdrive 3,977 lbs

Quick thoughts
A manual will weigh ~ 70-100lbs less.
Xdrive is going to add a lot of weight.
The 4 door version looks better in the new dimensions.
The weight is not as drastic as 991.2 vs 992.
Added size is not as drastic when comparing to former 3series, but we need to see how the G80 dimension come in.
3 series has grown, so Mcar derivitive will grow, if you want a smaller car get an M2.

Can't wait to get specs on the G80 lineup.
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