[KoenG]

Originally Posted by advantage20

Of course, I never meant that the shifting itself or having to modulate the throttle are unpleasant experiences per se! I've always loved my manuals, 3.0L 500+ Nm diesel included. I just meant that once you're in the 600Nm/600hp range, there has to be some drop in smoothness due to the sheer amount of torque/power delivered, no matter how talented the driver, on top of the previously discussed technical challenges to the MT itself. And once you're in those higher price brackets, buyers typically aren't looking for that thrilling focus and engagement anymore, but rather for quick yet relaxed and serene GT cruising in comfort and luxury (I'd assume, also because of the greater average age). Which is why, I guess, virtually no manufacturer ventures in that territory to begin with, even though apparently it is technically feasible.

In the end, if somehow BMW drops the ball even further and for example completely discontinues the base MT M3/M4 at LCI, forcing us to either go 8AT Competition or branch off to the M2, I'm confident that the M2 on the other hand will definitely keep its MT for years to come, and with a little luck the currently testing rumored 8AT M2 CS will later give way to a last hurrah MT M2 CSL, who knows

You assume that when you spend this amount, you're in relaxed driving? Sorry, you lost me there... there seem to be a bunch of brands doing wrong customer casting then. And when I'am 60+ and in relaxed driving, would I ever consider this 3.0CSL as an ultimate relaxed performance drive? Hope not so, there are many other steals then for much less than 800k€. Maybe a M8 competition or a MB AMG or Aston Martin, or .... for 5 times less? In short: there is no market for an inferiour 800k€ ride like this. It only appeals to millionairs that believe that it will return +8% on investment over the coming 15-20yrs.

Why the M2 will definitely keep its MT? It's the same transmission as in the M4/3. BMW is investing ZERO € in developing the MT. When I'am not mistaken it's Getrag sourced and it's clearly limited to 550Nm and 480hp. This is the last of the MT's ever in M cars. And when I consider how it shifts, the AT is a blessing.

[advantage20]

Originally Posted by KoenG

You assume that when you spend this amount, you're in relaxed driving? Sorry, you lost me there... there seem to be a bunch of brands doing wrong customer casting then. And when I'am 60+ and in relaxed driving, would I ever consider this 3.0CSL as an ultimate relaxed performance drive? Hope not so, there are many other steals then for much less than 800k€. Maybe a M8 competition or a MB AMG or Aston Martin, or .... for 5 times less? In short: there is no market for an inferiour 800k€ ride like this. It only appeals to millionairs that believe that it will return +8% on investment over the coming 15-20yrs.

I never claimed the 3.0 CSL belonged to that premium GT cruiser category, where you can indeed shop for multiple much more fitting solutions, be it from Bentley, Aston Martin, or even the M8, for much less than 750k€. On the contrary I assumed that it was going to fit the bill as the perfect old-school driving machine, since the 8AT M4 CSL itself is being widely acclaimed for its driving qualities, gearbox question aside. Now if that MT is as bad as members are claiming, then sure, in that regard, the car realistically ain't worth those 750k€ because it doesn't fit the Ultimate Driving Machine brief, and neither is it a luxury cruiser as already determined in the first place. So then it is indeed a very odd offering at that price point and certainly not a rational one.

What I'm personally more disappointed by is that, even if the 3.0 CSL turned out to be this exorbitantly priced and virtually unavailable product rather than the perfect driving enthusiast's beast (e.g. 911 GT3), it could at least have saved the day in the cosmetics department with that breathtaking quasi concept-car look we were entitled to expect from a full carbon fiber body and for that kind of money -- at least then it would have been worth it. Unfortunately there too it dropped the ball because of its inherent design limitations and didn't exactly turn into the masterpiece we were hoping for.

Originally Posted by KoenG

Why the M2 will definitely keep its MT? It's the same transmission as in the M4/3. BMW is investing ZERO € in developing the MT. When I'am not mistaken it's Getrag sourced and it's clearly limited to 550Nm and 480hp. This is the last of the MT's ever in M cars. And when I consider how it shifts, the AT is a blessing.

I meant that BMW might potentially maintain the MT for years to come at least on the current generation, no matter how imperfect it is, possibly giving the model a longer than usual life cycle (like the G20 for instance) if it is indeed the last BMW of its kind (small, nimble, pure ICE, manual) and if BMW would like to delay the next gen for this reason alone -- because the next gen would imply a significant paradigm shift altogether (AT, electrification or even pure EV, size and weight...). And with some courage from BMW, lobbying from German manufacturers in general, blowback from customers, and a little luck, we may still get an only mildly hybridized next gen M2, but then of course not manual.

[Car-Addicted]

BMW got it very right with this M4 DTM Champion Edition for Five times less money.

[advantage20]

Just a quick throwback to 3 and a half years ago when hopes were still high

[advantage20]

Okay so I guess the closest we'll ever get to knowing how good the 3.0 CSL's MT feels is at 13:40 in this video