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      11-11-2020, 09:04 PM   #23
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thats one common misconception of audis that they are all "FWD-based" .. yes weight is disproportionally over the front axel and lower end models use transverse engine design coupled with haldex awd, vast majority of cars have longitiunitally mounted engines and permanent rear biased AWD with optional mechanical torque vectoring (i have no idea why that is optional as audi banks so heavily on the Quattro branding)

easier to think VAG platforms that cars are based on... MQB based (Golf, A3) are transverse engine, haldex awd

MLB based (anything from A4 to Bentayga and Urus ) have longitiunitally mounted engines with torsen AWD . Although recently they have introduced quattro "ultra" which behaves more like a haldex system, i.e. rear axel typically disonnected

Then there's also a MSB platform (just panamera, continental gt, and flying spur sitting on it) that look similar to MLB but is Porsche designed (MLB is audi designed), some internal VAG portfolio politics going on there
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      11-11-2020, 11:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by DecemberStorm View Post
thats one common misconception of audis that they are all "FWD-based" .. yes weight is disproportionally over the front axel and lower end models use transverse engine design coupled with haldex awd, vast majority of cars have longitiunitally mounted engines and permanent rear biased AWD with optional mechanical torque vectoring (i have no idea why that is optional as audi banks so heavily on the Quattro branding)

easier to think VAG platforms that cars are based on... MQB based (Golf, A3) are transverse engine, haldex awd

MLB based (anything from A4 to Bentayga and Urus ) have longitiunitally mounted engines with torsen AWD . Although recently they have introduced quattro "ultra" which behaves more like a haldex system, i.e. rear axel typically disonnected

Then there's also a MSB platform (just panamera, continental gt, and flying spur sitting on it) that look similar to MLB but is Porsche designed (MLB is audi designed), some internal VAG portfolio politics going on there
Thank you for sharing that. I'm regularly stepping back in appreciation of the deep knowledge many of the forums members have (vs the opinions the likes of myself have to contribute
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      11-12-2020, 12:22 AM   #25
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Thank you for sharing that. I'm regularly stepping back in appreciation of the deep knowledge many of the forums members have (vs the opinions the likes of myself have to contribute
3 years of driving an audi and daydreaming about porsches does wonder for your VW group trivia night performance
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      11-12-2020, 02:04 AM   #26
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The Audi we know today (post WW2) had not built a single RWD production car until a one off RWD R8 Version. Their chassis are built for FWD with optional AWD. R8 again being the difference were FWD is not offered.

BMW only built RWD cars, some with option for AWD until recently.

Does it matter in terms of balance and turn-in? It has in every Audi and BMW I’ve driven. More so in the traverse engine mounted Haldex cars than the Torsen diff cars but it’s still a noticeable difference to an Xdrive car. Audis plow.

Last edited by solstice; 11-12-2020 at 02:10 AM..
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      11-12-2020, 03:44 PM   #27
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Is it just me or is BMW morphing into a heavy, big grilled, AWD copy cat of Audi? I'd be interested to know what people consider are its remaining differentiations?
Absolutely. This started when they decided to switch to FWD and 4-cyl engines as well.
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      11-13-2020, 04:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The Audi we know today (post WW2) had not built a single RWD production car until a one off RWD R8 Version. Their chassis are built for FWD with optional AWD. R8 again being the difference were FWD is not offered.

BMW only built RWD cars, some with option for AWD until recently.

Does it matter in terms of balance and turn-in? It has in every Audi and BMW I’ve driven. More so in the traverse engine mounted Haldex cars than the Torsen diff cars but it’s still a noticeable difference to an Xdrive car. Audis plow.
It is true that Audis plow at the limit. We've owned several performance oriented Audis and they all understeer quite heavily at the limit. IMO, it has to do mostly with their front weight bias. Those front tires have to work quite hard to get the car to rotate.
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      11-13-2020, 10:55 AM   #29
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It is true that Audis plow at the limit. We've owned several performance oriented Audis and they all understeer quite heavily at the limit. IMO, it has to do mostly with their front weight bias. Those front tires have to work quite hard to get the car to rotate.
And the weight over the front axle is mainly a symptom of the FWD chassis where the engines are mounted more forward and only marginally a symptom of the AWD transfer case weight. I.e. adding AWD to a RWD car like a BMW or Porsche does not make it behave like an Audi. That is a misconception.
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      11-13-2020, 12:29 PM   #30
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And the weight over the front axle is mainly a symptom of the FWD chassis where the engines are mounted more forward and only marginally a symptom of the AWD transfer case weight. I.e. adding AWD to a RWD car like a BMW or Porsche does not make it behave like an Audi. That is a misconception.
I agree, the chosen chassis architecture for Audi makes them very nose heavy. IIRC, the B9 RS4 carries a whopping 56% of its porky weight on the front axle. It is the combination of AWD and nose heaviness that makes them plow.

My point though is that BMW is edging more and more in that direction, heavier AWD cars with more weight on the front axle. This moves them closer to "Audi" handling dynamics and away from traditional BMW ones.
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      11-13-2020, 12:55 PM   #31
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I agree, the chosen chassis architecture for Audi makes them very nose heavy. IIRC, the B9 RS4 carries a whopping 56% of its porky weight on the front axle. It is the combination of AWD and nose heaviness that makes them plow.

My point though is that BMW is edging more and more in that direction, heavier AWD cars with more weight on the front axle. This moves them closer to "Audi" handling dynamics and away from traditional BMW ones.
Agreed in terms of direction. The same can be said about Porsche, heavier AWD cars where the weight is moving in direction of a mid engine layout. Times are changing for everyone, luddities suffering will only worsen
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      11-13-2020, 02:30 PM   #32
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Agreed in terms of direction. The same can be said about Porsche, heavier AWD cars where the weight is moving in direction of a mid engine layout. Times are changing for everyone, luddities suffering will only worsen
At least Porsche continue upping the game in terms of driving feel and engagement.
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      11-13-2020, 03:20 PM   #33
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At least Porsche continue upping the game in terms of driving feel and engagement.
I’m not sure owners of the air cooled era cars agree with you...
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      11-13-2020, 03:29 PM   #34
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I’m not sure owners of the air cooled era cars agree with you...
I am not comparing between eras (almost a quarter century). The discussion here is one generation to the next: F8X->G8X, 991->992
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      11-13-2020, 03:40 PM   #35
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I am not comparing between eras (almost a quarter century). The discussion here is one generation to the next: F8X->G8X, 991->992
It’s not specific to this generation it’s been the trend for decades. Heavier, AWD option, more technology , more isolation, less driver involvement etc, etc. No need to single out a generation.
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      11-13-2020, 03:49 PM   #36
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It’s not specific to this generation it’s been the trend for decades. Heavier, AWD option, more technology , more isolation, less driver involvement etc, etc. No need to single out a generation.
But I am. What was done 20 years ago is gone and begone. Porsche is PRESENTLY focused at increasing driving pleasure and driver engagement in their sports offerings. That cannot be said of BMW. This is what matters to me in my CURRENT purchases.
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      11-13-2020, 03:55 PM   #37
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But I am. What was done 20 years ago is gone and begone. Porsche is PRESENTLY focused at increasing driving pleasure and driver engagement in their sports offerings. That cannot be said of BMW. This is what matters to me in my CURRENT purchases.
Understood and Porsche should be applauded for it. BMW on the other hand just continue on the same trend it’s always been on. The F80 didn’t add weight but it grew bigger and added isolation in steering and a sterile overall experience. The G8X is again bigger and heavier but might add some more driver connection in terms of steering and sound. That front axle might also be more engaging. We will have to wait and see.
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      11-13-2020, 04:12 PM   #38
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Understood and Porsche should be applauded for it. BMW on the other hand just continue on the same trend it’s always been on. The F80 didn’t add weight but it grew bigger and added isolation in steering and a sterile overall experience. The G8X is again bigger and heavier but might add some more driver connection in terms of steering and sound. That front axle might also be more engaging. We will have to wait and see.
I have a different view. I find the F8X chassis to have much improved over the E9X, it is much more agile and playful. Lighter weight, more rigidity, hard mounted rear subframe all made that happen. What the F8X lost over the E9X is a little soul in the engine bay and some tactility in the steering, but overall it provided a much better driving experience for me, particularly on track. That moved up another notch with the M4cs, that brought back some of the "rawness" of the E46 (my DCT M4cs is within a few lbs of my old 6MT E46).
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      11-13-2020, 04:18 PM   #39
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I have a different view. I find the F8X chassis to have much improved over the E9X, it is much more agile and playful. Lighter weight, more rigidity, hard mounted rear subframe all made that happen. What the F8X lost over the E9X is a little soul in the engine bay and some tactility in the steering, but overall it provided a much better driving experience for me, particularly on track. That moved up another notch with the M4cs, that brought back some of the "rawness" of the E46 (my DCT M4cs is within a few lbs of my old 6MT E46).
Yeah, you’re one of the worst off with the G8X taken that you took full advantage of the F8X evolutionary anomalies with the CS. You are getting 2.5x average generational weight gains etc. at once. Luckily Porsche is there to save you for a minor fee...

I’m far from decided myself. I have 3-4 cars in the running, two are P-cars. And while I agree weight is getting out of hand for this segment I suspect the G8X will be just as fun and capable on street and track as the F8X. Interesting weight note, I was at the city dump yesterday. Our Cayenne weighed 4576 lbs with me in it. Not bad for a truck, maybe he G82 will be close

Last edited by solstice; 11-13-2020 at 04:30 PM..
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      11-14-2020, 06:00 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Understood and Porsche should be applauded for it. BMW on the other hand just continue on the same trend it's always been on. The F80 didn't add weight but it grew bigger and added isolation in steering and a sterile overall experience. The G8X is again bigger and heavier but might add some more driver connection in terms of steering and sound. That front axle might also be more engaging. We will have to wait and see.
I have a different view. I find the F8X chassis to have much improved over the E9X, it is much more agile and playful. Lighter weight, more rigidity, hard mounted rear subframe all made that happen. What the F8X lost over the E9X is a little soul in the engine bay and some tactility in the steering, but overall it provided a much better driving experience for me, particularly on track. That moved up another notch with the M4cs, that brought back some of the "rawness" of the E46 (my DCT M4cs is within a few lbs of my old 6MT E46).
I agree with this delta of the F80 to the E9x. The F80 felt lighter to me (perhaps aided by the higher low end torque and stiffer chassis around corners) and was significantly faster than the e9x. This trend has stopped with the G80. Certainly it's going to feel heavier than the F80 and it's no faster. So what has it significantly improved on (good in bad weather and Idrive 7?) I don't think it was design...
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      11-14-2020, 08:57 PM   #41
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I agree with this delta of the F80 to the E9x. The F80 felt lighter to me (perhaps aided by the higher low end torque and stiffer chassis around corners) and was significantly faster than the e9x. This trend has stopped with the G80. Certainly it's going to feel heavier than the F80 and it's no faster. So what has it significantly improved on (good in bad weather and Idrive 7?) I don't think it was design...
No faster? I guess you are referring to the 0-60 time?
That will be blown away by the AWD version and except the same story with other performance metrics from 1/4 mile to ring time and everything in between.

It is faster, likely much faster.
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      11-14-2020, 09:11 PM   #42
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I agree with this delta of the F80 to the E9x. The F80 felt lighter to me (perhaps aided by the higher low end torque and stiffer chassis around corners) and was significantly faster than the e9x. This trend has stopped with the G80. Certainly it's going to feel heavier than the F80 and it's no faster. So what has it significantly improved on (good in bad weather and Idrive 7?) I don't think it was design...
No faster? I guess you are referring to the 0-60 time?
That will be blown away by the AWD version and except the same story with other performance metrics from 1/4 mile to ring time and everything in between.

It is faster, likely much faster.
I guess that will make sense. I was surprised they didn't lead with AWD on release to bring that point home for first year buyers. I wonder if there will be buyers regretting year 1 purchases when the fully realised models are launched a year later as with the F80?
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      11-14-2020, 09:33 PM   #43
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I guess that will make sense. I was surprised they didn't lead with AWD on release to bring that point home for first year buyers. I wonder if there will be buyers regretting year 1 purchases when the fully realised models are launched a year later as with the F80?
Agreed, what I gathered from insiders is that it’s a production capacity/planning issue. No slots available for the AWD until summer next year.
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      11-29-2020, 12:37 AM   #44
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Quote:
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And the weight over the front axle is mainly a symptom of the FWD chassis where the engines are mounted more forward and only marginally a symptom of the AWD transfer case weight. I.e. adding AWD to a RWD car like a BMW or Porsche does not make it behave like an Audi. That is a misconception.
I agree, the chosen chassis architecture for Audi makes them very nose heavy. IIRC, the B9 RS4 carries a whopping 56% of its porky weight on the front axle. It is the combination of AWD and nose heaviness that makes them plow.

My point though is that BMW is edging more and more in that direction, heavier AWD cars with more weight on the front axle. This moves them closer to "Audi" handling dynamics and away from traditional BMW ones.
So the 56% nose weight for the audis is bad, but the 53% nose weight of the new M3 competition is about the same. Add the awd and there you have the 56%
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