[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by adc

Interesting, appreciate the insight. And I hope you are right, I’m intrigued by the new Z06 perhaps as my next car.

But as for your other comment, running with the C7Z and Porsches, well, that’s not saying much. I pass those and more exotics all day long. My car is quick, but shouldn’t be that quick.

No offense but your car shouldn't get the credit, it's probably your driver skill vs others with their inferior driver skill.

So if you're passing C7Z's, chances are it's a 60 year old man just enjoying actually being on the track.

C7Z's, especially manuals, will clean house with a proper driver. People really don't understand how fast corvettes are, especially z06 variants.

[TheStanman]

Originally Posted by adc

You can look at this from the other perspective as well. Just after everyone else moved away from high revving NA motors, GM came late to the party. Why didn’t they do it 10 years ago, when it would have made an impact.

Plus, given how much trouble their “special engines” have had in the past, I’d wait a year or two before buying. Unless you like beta testing for them.

I think releasing it now, when most everything has gone turbo, makes it far more special and have far more impact.

I agree with BGM that the Z06 will bring tons of new people to the Corvette brand. I have never liked Corvettes, but am considering one solely for the engine. I plan to own a special NA engine into the EV future (while having an EV daily).

I do agree that engine reliability is a huge concern. I'm sure it'll have teething issues, but just hoping it's reliable once those are resolved.

Other cars I'm considering are GT3/GT4RS or R8 V10. The nice thing about the Porsche 4.0 is you know it's bulletproof. I don't know about the V10, so would have to research that.

[adc]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

No offense but your car shouldn't get the credit, it's probably your driver skill vs others with their inferior driver skill.

So if you're passing C7Z's, chances are it's a 60 year old man just enjoying actually being on the track.

C7Z's, especially manuals, will clean house with a proper driver. People really don't understand how fast corvettes are, especially z06 variants.

You missed my point. I was replying to a comment that said the standard C8 after an alignment is now running with the C7Z and exotic Porsches. It isn’t, anymore than my car is, for equal drivers.

And there aren’t any people out for a casual stroll in the groups I run in.

[adc]

After watching the videos, I cannot believe how benign that AMG appears to be even in lower speed corners, especially with the power it is deploying. Amazing.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by adc

You missed my point. I was replying to a comment that said the standard C8 after an alignment is now running with the C7Z and exotic Porsches. It isn’t, anymore than my car is, for equal drivers.

And there aren’t any people out for a casual stroll in the groups I run in.

But is your car stock?

A stock stingray running with a z06 variant is huge, if drivers are equal. A proper z06 driver would lap a stingray.

I’m sure your car is set up properly and I’m sure you have more skills than most corvette owners at a given track but make no mistake, it’s not your car really it’s your skill level. Especially if your m3 is stock. It will never compete with a corvette stock vs stock. And that’s talking about a stingray. A z06 comparing to an m3, your f80 or even a g80 and a z06 will destroy it.

[adc]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

But is your car stock?

A stock stingray running with a z06 variant is huge, if drivers are equal. A proper z06 driver would lap a stingray.

I’m sure your car is set up properly and I’m sure you have more skills than most corvette owners at a given track but make no mistake, it’s not your car really it’s your skill level. Especially if your m3 is stock. It will never compete with a corvette stock vs stock. And that’s talking about a stingray. A z06 comparing to an m3, your f80 or even a g80 and a z06 will destroy it.

Not stock. Suspension, good alignment, tune, Hoosiers and pads. I seem to be doing similar times as C7 GS. Not sure about C8, I need to see more at the track, time will tell.

The C7Z is very hard to drive really well, and forget about playing with it at the limit. I’ve personally witnessed 2 instructors wrecking their cars on a colder day at VIR on a November track day. They can be very spooky once you’re really cooking, and many drivers back off at that level.

The M3 runs fine in November, and mid July, and when it rains. It’s easier to maximize the potential of the M (which I am far from doing).


I guess I’ve come to the general conclusion that these 1 second, 2 second (or even 10 second differences on the Nurburgring) truly don’t mean squat. It’s how the car responds to a certain level of skill, let’s call it middle level, that is represented by what you see on track days. Anyway by the time you get to run in Intermediate or Advanced, most cars are not stock anymore, and some of them are extremely far from stock. Passing or getting passed is just a hopefully minor inconvenience, best dealt with as quickly as possible so you can resume the experimentation. Unless you’re playing with a buddy of course. Car brands and models are almost irrelevant.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by adc

Not stock. Suspension, good alignment, tune, Hoosiers and pads. I seem to be doing similar times as C7 GS. Not sure about C8, I need to see more at the track, time will tell.

The C7Z is very hard to drive really well, and forget about playing with it at the limit. I’ve personally witnessed 2 instructors wrecking their cars on a colder day at VIR on a November track day. They can be very spooky once you’re really cooking, and many drivers back off at that level.

The M3 runs fine in November, and mid July, and when it rains. It’s easier to maximize the potential of the M (which I am far from doing).


I guess I’ve come to the general conclusion that these 1 second, 2 second (or even 10 second differences on the Nurburgring) truly don’t mean squat. It’s how the car responds to a certain level of skill, let’s call it middle level, that is represented by what you see on track days. Anyway by the time you get to run in Intermediate or Advanced, most cars are not stock anymore, and some of them are extremely far from stock. Passing or getting passed is just a hopefully minor inconvenience, best dealt with as quickly as possible so you can resume the experimentation. Unless you’re playing with a buddy of course. Car brands and models are almost irrelevant.

I agree a C7GS will be A LOT quicker on a track vs a C8 stingray if both drivers are equal just because the wider wheels/tires and bigger brakes. Not to mention the manual has better gearing and the gearing in the C8 stingray doesn't suit most US tracks. Or at least the popular ones.

The C7Z is a handful to control, even in stock form. I know i have one. The best anyone can ever do if they own these cars is to actually get a slower car and learn car control first, then step up if they want to take their C7Z at the track. The issue with most corvette owners is a lot of them use their ego to drive. Which means they'll take their car out, even during a warmup lap, with their cup2's and then turn everything off. That's how one of our fellow corvette members lost his yellow C7Z. There was a gigantic thread following that accident. Some people felt bad for him. Some people gave him so much shit for not learning about the car before just setting out, and giving it 100% throttle, 2 minutes into your first lap, on cup2's. The PDR shows he gave it 100% throttle and he couldn't control it. The car was totalled.

I disagree however about the 1-2 second lap time. While 1 second probably means nothing at the ring because there's many factors that contribute to those lap times, just remember as cars or times get faster, every second DOES count.

For instance if a C7Z can run the ring at 7:13 and then you take your M3, and run 7:11, your car is blistering fast.

But if a car ran 7:55 at the ring, and you took your M3 and ran 7:52. Then yeah that probably means nothing.

[adc]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

I disagree however about the 1-2 second lap time. While 1 second probably means nothing at the ring because there's many factors that contribute to those lap times, just remember as cars or times get faster, every second DOES count.

For instance if a C7Z can run the ring at 7:13 and then you take your M3, and run 7:11, your car is blistering fast.

But if a car ran 7:55 at the ring, and you took your M3 and ran 7:52. Then yeah that probably means nothing.

There is a 4 second (or more!) gap between my times and those of a pro driver, same car, at a track like VIR Full, 3.3 miles long. In terms of track position, it's an eternity. Within those 4-5 seconds lies a spectrum of drivers, from decent all the way to great. So you can put it into context, 4 seconds at VIR would be equivalent to around 15-18 seconds on the Ring.

The difference between a 7:13 and a 7:11 lap at the Ring (over 13 miles) can just as easily ascribed to a sneeze in the wrong corner, the difference in weather conditions, or a butterfly farting in China. I'll keep my opinion that 2 seconds means nothing really, with all the variability of car/track/time, even with similar level drivers.

If we're talking professional racing, 1 second per lap is a huge gap that most drivers cannot recover from. But note that professional racing occurs with all cars running at the same time, and experiencing the same conditions. With a large car test such as Sport Auto's, despite their attempt to equalize conditions (same driver/track/day), there is significant variability between the cars running at 9AM vs. 2PM in the day. Unavoidable really, so do take all these with a grain of salt. That is all I'm saying.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by adc

There is a 4 second (or more!) gap between my times and those of a pro driver, same car, at a track like VIR Full, 3.3 miles long. In terms of track position, it's an eternity. Within those 4-5 seconds lies a spectrum of drivers, from decent all the way to great. So you can put it into context, 4 seconds at VIR would be equivalent to around 15-18 seconds on the Ring.

The difference between a 7:13 and a 7:11 lap at the Ring (over 13 miles) can just as easily ascribed to a sneeze in the wrong corner, the difference in weather conditions, or a butterfly farting in China. I'll keep my opinion that 2 seconds means nothing really, with all the variability of car/track/time, even with similar level drivers.

If we're talking professional racing, 1 second per lap is a huge gap that most drivers cannot recover from. But note that professional racing occurs with all cars running at the same time, and experiencing the same conditions. With a large car test such as Sport Auto's, despite their attempt to equalize conditions (same driver/track/day), there is significant variability between the cars running at 9AM vs. 2PM in the day. Unavoidable really, so do take all these with a grain of salt. That is all I'm saying.

7:13 was the actual time of the C7Z though.

So if that same driver took your car and ran 7:11 that is insanely fast is what i'm saying. Which would give credit to the car, since the driver is equal. If we factor in those things you said about seconds apart, then that means every single time posted at the ring is flawed. Manufactures have multiple attempts at getting their fastest time. If they do it on a day with traffic, one hold up costs them that lap. Then it's done. They start over.

I don't think if a manufacture puts out 7:13 for a specific car and they're not happy with it, they won't allow that time to be it. They will get another attempt at some point in time to get their best lap.

Regarding regular drivers like you, or me, or whomever you may see at the track and you know their car is capable of putting down very fast laps but don't, that is the fault of the driver. Which is what i pointed out in an earlier post.

You saying you're keeping up with C7Z's or porsches in your lightly modded M3 doesn't mean your car is necessarily fast, it just means you're a better driver than those who are driving those C7Z's and porsches.

Similar as if you were to put a pro driver in your car, i bet he will run 2-3, or 4-5 seconds faster than your fastest lap at whatever track you're on.

[adc]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

7:13 was the actual time of the C7Z though.

So if that same driver took your car and ran 7:11 that is insanely fast is what i'm saying. Which would give credit to the car, since the driver is equal. If we factor in those things you said about seconds apart, then that means every single time posted at the ring is flawed. Manufactures have multiple attempts at getting their fastest time. If they do it on a day with traffic, one hold up costs them that lap. Then it's done. They start over.

I don't think if a manufacture puts out 7:13 for a specific car and they're not happy with it, they won't allow that time to be it. They will get another attempt at some point in time to get their best lap.

Regarding regular drivers like you, or me, or whomever you may see at the track and you know their car is capable of putting down very fast laps but don't, that is the fault of the driver. Which is what i pointed out in an earlier post.

You saying you're keeping up with C7Z's or porsches in your lightly modded M3 doesn't mean your car is necessarily fast, it just means you're a better driver than those who are driving those C7Z's and porsches.

Similar as if you were to put a pro driver in your car, i bet he will run 2-3, or 4-5 seconds faster than your fastest lap at whatever track you're on.

Do you track your C7Z? Because if you aren’t, you lack a secondary frame of reference. If you show up at a track event and you run your super duper hypercar crushing track tool at the same level as an E46 M3, then what possible difference can it make how fast your car can really be in theory?

Case in point, in the hands of amateurs such as us there is no practical difference between the cars in this Sport Auto test that are 1 second apart. Over a 30 min session you will get a variability of 2-3-4 seconds per lap due to tires and brakes fading, driver getting tired/unfocused, seat comfort, car behavior and traffic from other drivers.

You may get passed in the first lap by that Aston Martin, only to reel it back 3 laps later, only to get passed again as you make a mistake 2 corners in a row and he’s on you like glue again. Yes a Miata or a GTI will not keep up but cars that are 1 second apart are not really apart at track days.

Forgot to say, performance over 1 hot lap may or may not be indicative of performance over a 30 min session. The auto C7Z may overheat after 15 min.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by adc

Do you track your C7Z? Because if you aren’t, you lack a secondary frame of reference. If you show up at a track event and you run your super duper hypercar crushing track tool at the same level as an E46 M3, then what possible difference can it make how fast your car can really be in theory?

Case in point, in the hands of amateurs such as us there is no practical difference between the cars in this Sport Auto test that are 1 second apart. Over a 30 min session you will get a variability of 2-3-4 seconds per lap due to tires and brakes fading, driver getting tired/unfocused, seat comfort, car behavior and traffic from other drivers.

You may get passed in the first lap by that Aston Martin, only to reel it back 3 laps later, only to get passed again as you make a mistake 2 corners in a row and he’s on you like glue again. Yes a Miata or a GTI will not keep up but cars that are 1 second apart are not really apart at track days.

Forgot to say, performance over 1 hot lap may or may not be indicative of performance over a 30 min session. The auto C7Z may overheat after 15 min.

My c7z is a manual so it doesn’t suffer overheating.

A hero lap is a hero lap, that’s why I’m referring to the ring. As cars get faster every second is crucial or the lap is toast. A car running 7:13 like a c7z and another car running 7:12 or 7:11 just shows how much faster the 7:11 car is even though it’s only 2 seconds faster. Slower cars with seconds dividing it means nothing.

All I was saying which is what started this whole thing was that when you said you can pass c7z And Porsches and it’s no big deal isn’t a credit to your car since f80 isn’t even in the same breath as a c7z, it just means you’re a better driver than those driving those Porsches and c7z’s. You take someone with an equal driver skill as you behind the wheel of those cars and you’ll never even be able to read their license plate because they’re so far ahead of you.