[bmwdrive]

Originally Posted by 340i9114s

Sure, I see what you're saying. But I would way rather a lightly used 991 (dont love the 992 at all) over a brand new M3.

I would take a base no options 911 over a fully loaded M3. So I'm looking at a no options M3 (or M2).

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Thanks interesting, I find the 992 drives so much better than the 991. The EPS is also much improved, almost feels like a hydraulic steering in terms of tactility and feedback.

I agree, unless you are after the NA engine in the 1st gen. 991 I see no reason to favor it over the 992. I do like that the classic boxer raucous is much more pronounced in the NA type of 991 but that’s it.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

I agree, unless you are after the NA engine in the 1st gen. 991 I see no reason to favor it over the 992. I do like that the classic boxer raucous is much more pronounced in the NA type of 991 but that’s it.

Agreed. Very similar to how I feel between the S65 and S55. The former has more soul, the later has more grunt.

[wtwo3]

What's everyone's thoughts on a 718 GTS? It's a bit closer to the price of an M3/M4 (although still easily exceeds it once you put a few basic options on the thing).

[snareman]

I had done it before, but again just went and priced a 718 Cayman S - 1 up from the low end of the Porsche family. It started at a "reasonable" $72k, but with what I thought were some modest additions I was very quickly over $90k.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by snareman

I had done it before, but again just went and priced a 718 Cayman S - 1 up from the low end of the Porsche family. It started at a "reasonable" $72k, but with what I thought were some modest additions I was very quickly over $90k.

Yeah that's the issue with porsche... every little thing is an option, and a pricey one at that. I COULD option a GTS for around $92k, but it would be missing quite a few options that you would get on an M3/M4.

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

What's everyone's thoughts on a 718 GTS? It's a bit closer to the price of an M3/M4 (although still easily exceeds it once you put a few basic options on the thing).

It's one of the very best handling vehicles on the market at any price, if I could get away with a 2 seater it would be exactly the car I'd buy with my money even though it would be an extreme stretch for my budget.

I personally find it impossible to option one the way I'd want for under $100k vs $76k for my G80 M3 spec so the price + space for people means the M3 is still a very attractive option in comparison.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Yeah that's the issue with porsche... every little thing is an option, and a pricey one at that. I COULD option a GTS for around $92k, but it would be missing quite a few options that you would get on an M3/M4.

Yes indeed! Just adding seats that moved in more than 2 directions was an extra $2800 or so. Crazy. I thought what I consider to be normal seats these days are included in normal cars just like FM radio and electric windows. Apparently with Porsche you get only the equivalent of AM and hand crank windows unless you pay up.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Remonster

It's one of the very best handling vehicles on the market at any price, if I could get away with a 2 seater it would be exactly the car I'd buy with my money even though it would be an extreme stretch for my budget.

I personally find it impossible to option one the way I'd want for under $100k vs $76k for my G80 M3 spec so the price + space for people means the M3 is still a very attractive option in comparison.

Yeah my #1 issue is I need back seats. If my daughter was of age where she could sit in the front, I'd 100% consider the 718 GTS somewhere between the $90k-$100k range.

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

What's everyone's thoughts on a 718 GTS? It's a bit closer to the price of an M3/M4 (although still easily exceeds it once you put a few basic options on the thing).

They're tough to compare. Uncompromised purpose-built sports car from a company that's one of the very best in the world at maximizing every facet of driver sensation vs. an amped-up luxury sedan from a company that's somewhere around very good (but not great) at the same.

If you just want to maximize endorphins and can live with all that it takes to achieve that, the Porsche is going to blow the M3 away. But I think most people aren't fully prepared for what that means and are still better served with the latter, at least if it's their only car.

[bmwdrive]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

They're tough to compare. Uncompromised purpose-built sports car from a company that's one of the very best in the world at maximizing every facet of driver sensation vs. an amped-up luxury sedan from a company that's somewhere around very good (but not great) at the same.

If you just want to maximize endorphins and can live with all that it takes to achieve that, the Porsche is going to blow the M3 away. But I think most people aren't fully prepared for what that means and are still better served with the latter, at least if it's their only car.

I'm looking at the Base Cayman that gets into M3 territory price with just a few options. I can see how a 718 GTS might be better than an M3. But a Base 718?

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by danf72

I'm looking at the Base Cayman that gets into M3 territory price with just a few options. I can see how a 718 GTS might be better than an M3. But a Base 718?

If you can get past the engine and power, yeah, even the base 718 easily stacks up against most of the current BMWs as a driver's car (the M2 is a credible contender for various reasons but I'll cover that in a minute). The steering has noticeably more heft at speed and far more feedback (Porsche's first attempt at EPAS was already extremely good for an EPAS, but they've really started to perfect it with the 992 and 982), the chassis is sharper and more responsive, and (if you go MT) the shifter and clutch are far better. The four pot doesn't sound particularly great, but frankly neither does the S55 or S58 (at least not to my ears--but I have a GT4 so my frame of reference is extremely skewed).

That's a big "if," though, because power and acceleration are a big part of the equation for many buyers. Also, BMW M is really good at tuning for perceptual performance in the regimes that most owners/drivers will experience on a normal test drive or over the course of ownership. For example: the M2's slippery but eminently controllable rear axle makes it a blast on the road at relatively sane speeds (though that trait becomes borderline annoying on the track). The Porsche is a bit the opposite: it'll seem bored and just goad you into going harder until you're really punching it, but is massively rewarding and confidence-inspiring once you do.

Yes, you're going to get better numbers and more features for a given amount of money in a BMW than you will a Porsche; that's clear...but from the other direction you'd do just as well to cross-shop a Camaro SS or Mustang GT against the M2 or M3. Depends on your priorities and what you (subjectively) value. Oh, and the Porsche options sheet is a rookie trap. If you feel like you can't live without things like premium audio, radar cruise control, or keyless entry/start, it's really not the right car for you (since driver involvement is a key selling point, and the engine sits inches behind you and will wash out anything coming from the audio system...these upgrade choices are mostly pointless). The only real must-haves are sport seats plus, the sport steering wheel, PASM, and the limited slip (for the base/S; the T, GTS, and GT cars all have these standard). And the buckets if you get a GT car.

[Mosef81]

On paper the g80 is cutting it too close to porsche pricing to be sensible. Dealers will inevitably have to sell with significant discounts to make it an attractive proposition.

Fast beemers have an appeal of their own, and I have often fallen into the mind trap of BMW vs Porsche....Porsche comes out on top... Etc etc. But the front engine rear drive layout has a different dynamic.

The main problem I found when selling my f82 was the epic depreciation. Fast beemers have never been equitable in the short to medium term. The 911, not so much. So from a monetary perspective, combined with the unique appeal of a flat 6 rear engine rear drive experience, I can see why at the list price, buyers of the coupe would be best served with the 911.

The key thing with either car is not to go crazy with options.. It is exactly as a previous contributor said.. A rookie trap. A sports car/911 is a car best served light, and therefore with as few options as possible. Even porsche knows this and thus their most sought after variants like the 3.2 Clubsport, 2.7 Carrera RS, 911R have traditionally come stripped.

The problem with this generation of BMW is that options are absolutely necessary to make the looks more palatable but at the same time drive the price up towards that of an equally desirable 911.

[Montaver]

What new Porsche can you get for $80k that has a manual transmission, can carry 4 adults in comfort and has 480HP? $80k gets you a 2 seater, 4 cylinder (LOL) Cayman. A 911 doesn't have usable rear seats.

[Mosef81]

Originally Posted by Montaver

What new Porsche can you get for $80k that has a manual transmission, can carry 4 adults in comfort and has 480HP? $80k gets you a 2 seater, 4 cylinder (LOL) Cayman. A 911 doesn't have usable rear seats.

OK my point is this (granted UK pricing, and I am assuming the US pricing is similar in relative terms).

M4 Comp (only version we get here, and we don't get manual anymore) with the ultimate package ticked = £87305
Base 992 Carrera No options = £82795

Now, you could spec up a stripper 992 and be perfectly happy living with it, have 4 seats and lose less money on resale when compared to the (unnecessarily) optioned m4, and have more 'kudos' in the company car park (if that is important to you). The pressure to option out the M4 is greater for people as the design is less immediately appealing.

Finally I stand by the opinion that HP over 350/400 is unusable on the streets of the UK.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Mosef81

OK my point is this (granted UK pricing, and I am assuming the US pricing is similar in relative terms).

M4 Comp (only version we get here, and we don't get manual anymore) with the ultimate package ticked = £87305
Base 992 Carrera No options = £82795

Now, you could spec up a stripper 992 and be perfectly happy living with it, have 4 seats and lose less money on resale when compared to the (unnecessarily) optioned m4, and have more 'kudos' in the company car park (if that is important to you). The pressure to option out the M4 is greater for people as the design is less immediately appealing.

Finally I stand by the opinion that HP over 350/400 is unusable on the streets of the UK.

The rear seats of the 911 are not really rear seats at all. From a practicality standpoint there is no comparison to a 3 series. If you need one car to do it all, your not buying a 911 if you have a family.

I see a lot of comments on here like 'oh that's it I'm moving to Porsche' like this isn't a path that has been well trodden before. If you replace an M3 with a 911 its because you can deal with the reduced practicality. The buyers for the M3 will be the guys moving up from Golf R's, WRX's, Focus ST's etc. that have a young family but still want something interesting to drive. 911's are weekend toys for the most part, M cars are driven everyday. Sure if you are 50 year old dentist and your kids are at college, you might daily a poverty spec 911 with beige leather. However that's not as big a market as you might think, Porsche are still a low volume manufacturer compared to BMW. BMW did try and compete with the 911 Turbo in this generation - the M8 - and look how that went. No one bought it, because no one is paying $140k for a highly compromised BMW with faux backseats.

I'm highly critical of the current direction of M, but go look at the Porsche lineup and find me a car that can compete directly with the M3. A poverty spec 911 can't compete for all the aforementioned practicality limitations. A Macan is an SUV, and drives like one. Panamera is an exec land yacht. I'm lucky enough to drive two cars (including a Porsche), but if I was locked in one it would 100% be an M.

[DecemberStorm]

Originally Posted by Mosef81

OK my point is this (granted UK pricing, and I am assuming the US pricing is similar in relative terms).

M4 Comp (only version we get here, and we don't get manual anymore) with the ultimate package ticked = £87305
Base 992 Carrera No options = £82795

Now, you could spec up a stripper 992 and be perfectly happy living with it, have 4 seats and lose less money on resale when compared to the (unnecessarily) optioned m4, and have more 'kudos' in the company car park (if that is important to you). The pressure to option out the M4 is greater for people as the design is less immediately appealing.

Finally I stand by the opinion that HP over 350/400 is unusable on the streets of the UK.

UK pricing is either not bad or has lesser standard equipment which is more likely

here in frozen land.. a base 992 C2 is >110k cad, you are gonna need to tick every single box on the G8X RWD (chunky ultimate package, carbon everything, etc) to get it there

i think most of us can agree that if we have the means to swing a properly speeced 992 C2S or C4S, let alone Turbo or GT models .. we'd do it... where I am there are about 55 thousand reasons why I'm getting a G82 and not a 992 LOL

[Gizmo 335i]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

What's everyone's thoughts on a 718 GTS? It's a bit closer to the price of an M3/M4 (although still easily exceeds it once you put a few basic options on the thing).

Cramped, loud, awkward offset pedals, frustratingly high clutch engagement point, difficult ingress/egress. No fan here although I know I'm in the minority.

[Nugget]

Porsche pricing is crazy in Australia, they aren't close to the same ballpark.

A zero option (impossible) 992 Carrera is $260k.
G80 M3 (non comp) is going to start at $145k.
G80 will come pretty loaded by default here. Only significant cost options on the G80 are the carbon seats, brakes and exterior pieces (available individually or as a package for $26k).

And I can't put three kids in a 911.

[REMN4NT]

Porsche is way to go if you can afford.
M3/M4 will depreciate to 40k range after 2 to 3 years and every rich daddy owned teenagers will drive and treat it like honda civics.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Montaver

The rear seats of the 911 are not really rear seats at all. From a practicality standpoint there is no comparison to a 3 series. If you need one car to do it all, your not buying a 911 if you have a family.

I see a lot of comments on here like 'oh that's it I'm moving to Porsche' like this isn't a path that has been well trodden before. If you replace an M3 with a 911 its because you can deal with the reduced practicality. The buyers for the M3 will be the guys moving up from Golf R's, WRX's, Focus ST's etc. that have a young family but still want something interesting to drive. 911's are weekend toys for the most part, M cars are driven everyday. Sure if you are 50 year old dentist and your kids are at college, you might daily a poverty spec 911 with beige leather. However that's not as big a market as you might think, Porsche are still a low volume manufacturer compared to BMW. BMW did try and compete with the 911 Turbo in this generation - the M8 - and look how that went. No one bought it, because no one is paying $140k for a highly compromised BMW with faux backseats.

I'm highly critical of the current direction of M, but go look at the Porsche lineup and find me a car that can compete directly with the M3. A poverty spec 911 can't compete for all the aforementioned practicality limitations. A Macan is an SUV, and drives like one. Panamera is an exec land yacht. I'm lucky enough to drive two cars (including a Porsche), but if I was locked in one it would 100% be an M.

This is a great post.

It seems like they've done better in terms of standard options with the 992, but I remember looking at the 991 and seeing that Comfort Access is not a standard option on a car that expensive.

Regardless, if you're looking at strictly manuals, you'd have to jump to a Carrera S which increases the delta between the 2 cars pretty significantly.

[Habber]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

No.

The MSRP on my 2015 non-comp F82 was $83,000, it had everything except the electric sun shade in the back and carbon ceramic breaks. This one is equipped similarly: all the packages with no carbon seats or carbon ceramic breaks, and it's competition model, and it's $81,500.

So you basically don't mind getting ripped off for a second time....