[beachBmmr]

A key component of going fast on track is pushing the car just past the limit of mechanical grip and sliding in, through and out of corners. You can see this in almost all professional racing, where the cars are getting thrown into corners, and are just slipping a bit powering out..

I am struggling with getting to that point with my lap times plateauing well below the potential of the car.

Most racers learn this sensation and car control with go-karts, and then make several iterative steps up into faster and grippier platforms...not a realistic option for me to learn this way.

Folks I talk with at the track suggest moving to a less powerful, and less grippy platform is the way to learn this (as well as less cost of mistakes). Also putting less grippy tires on the car to enable sliding at lower potentials to get comfortable sliding.

I push pretty hard, and have had a few instances of snap oversteer I was able to catch, as well as full slides off track, and one significant 720 degree spin that I kept on the surface.

I would love to hear from other track drivers how they have pushed themselves to get more aggressive with sliding, and how they effectively and safely improved their comfort at slip angle...

[Pic18]

So not sure I fully agree that a key component of going fast is going beyond the limit of mechanical grip, rather you want to drive at the limit of mechanical grip. That said what you are likely referring to is obtaining the appropriate level of "slip angle" which, for reasons beyond my comprehension, tires actually perform at their peak with some level of slip.

I believe the best place to get comfortable with a car moving around and sliding (going over/under the levels of available grip) is either in an autocross or if you can find a car control clinic. I currently race in SpecE46 but still take my F80 to autocrosses for some fun and practice. In racing your do not really "throw" a car into turns, smooth is fast still applies to some extent, but in autocross you can "throw" the car around a lot more and get a feel for the limit of grip (and how to control when you go over) in a much safer environment.

If I were you I would take the car you track with the same tires to an autocross and go out (not worrying about times) and just experiment. Maybe not necessarily turning the whole lap into a drift event, but pushing your self and the car to your limits, getting used to it sliding around and walking the line between to much and to little slip angle.

[beachBmmr]

Originally Posted by Pic18

So not sure I fully agree that a key component of going fast is going beyond the limit of mechanical grip, rather you want to drive at the limit of mechanical grip. That said what you are likely referring to is obtaining the appropriate level of "slip angle" which, for reasons beyond my comprehension, tires actually perform at their peak with some level of slip.

I believe the best place to get comfortable with a car moving around and sliding (going over/under the levels of available grip) is either in an autocross or if you can find a car control clinic. I currently race in SpecE46 but still take my F80 to autocrosses for some fun and practice. In racing your do not really "throw" a car into turns, smooth is fast still applies to some extent, but in autocross you can "throw" the car around a lot more and get a feel for the limit of grip (and how to control when you go over) in a much safer environment.

If I were you I would take the car you track with the same tires to an autocross and go out (not worrying about times) and just experiment. Maybe not necessarily turning the whole lap into a drift event, but pushing your self and the car to your limits, getting used to it sliding around and walking the line between to much and to little slip angle.

Yep, Autocross was suggested as a low risk way of getting accustomed to the grip limits...Thanks for your input.

[jmg]

I use autocross sessions as well. Cones don't hurt as much as walls!

[PLF69]

Very interesting subject

beachBmmr how many years have you been doing track days (hpde) ?

Track driving was something I always wanted to do for a long time and when I decided to stop doing drag racing and try it I baught a 2005 Miata just for that purpose witch isn't even the best car to learn sliding since it's very snappy.

One of the things that helped me the most throughout the years is listening to instructors while they were riding passenger and telling me when to brake, gas and turn, it often kind of helps repush limits your brain creates without you really thinking about it. Hard to explain.

The rest is a lot of practice/laps on the same track with the same car, when you switch car sometimes it's almost like starting over. I saw pro racers hop into different cars on the same day and they still need a few laps of even sessions to adapt but of course they do it way faster than us.

[beachBmmr]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Very interesting subject

beachBmmr how many years have you been doing track days (hpde) ?

Track driving was something I always wanted to do for a long time and when I decided to stop doing drag racing and try it I baught a 2005 Miata just for that purpose witch isn't even the best car to learn sliding since it's very snappy.

One of the things that helped me the most throughout the years is listening to instructors while they were riding passenger and telling me when to brake, gas and turn, it often kind of helps repush limits your brain creates without you really thinking about it. Hard to explain.

The rest is a lot of practice/laps on the same track with the same car, when you switch car sometimes it's almost like starting over. I saw pro racers hop into different cars on the same day and they still need a few laps of even sessions to adapt but of course they do it way faster than us.

Ive been track driving for about 4 years.

I joined a track as a member so I have a great place to be comfortable and know the track well having done about 500 laps there already.

My problem is pushing into slides as Im trying not to run off track or into a barrier (theres only one at the pit wall here).

Agree that coaches have certainly given confidence, Ive run with a coach 3 times and it makes me faster.

Im just asking what others have done to break through this barrier.

A coach told me that 85% of his students never get to the point where they are comfortable at the edge of traction catching the slides and really driving at the limit

[Pic18]

Originally Posted by beachBmmr

Ive been track driving for about 4 years.

I joined a track as a member so I have a great place to be comfortable and know the track well having done about 500 laps there already.

My problem is pushing into slides as Im trying not to run off track or into a barrier (theres only one at the pit wall here).

Agree that coaches have certainly given confidence, Ive run with a coach 3 times and it makes me faster.

Im just asking what others have done to break through this barrier.

A coach told me that 85% of his students never get to the point where they are comfortable at the edge of traction catching the slides and really driving at the limit

I do not know the track(s) you run on, but the key to being fast (and controlling the car) is actually being "comfortable being uncomfortable." What I mean is that if you stay within your comfort zone (you mention not wanting to run off the track) you tend to be less prepared for when things go wrong or overreact when they do. For example there are turns at some of the tracks I run at (Mid Ohio turn 1, VIR turn 10, Summit point turn 3) that people are so concerned with going off that they often overcorrect and go into the inside wall when there was plenty of room to just run off the track and then regain control on the outside (off track) of the turn. Additionally people tend to try and get back on the track to quickly when there is room to regain control and straighten out on the grass.

There is a quote from Mario Andretti that I think is "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough." This is obviously a slippery slope and once again I do not know the tracks you drive on, but if there are areas that give ample run off room I would work up (walk not run) to carrying more speed in those turns (making yourself uncomfortable) and if things start to go wrong do not be afraid to drop a wheel or two (or four) in the grass (being comfortable being uncomfortable). If you are afraid to go off everywhere (not just where there is a barrier) it will be hard to overcome the bubble you are currently at. I am no way suggesting that you purposely go off the track or overdrive the car, but you need to be in those situations to learn that line between being comfortable (everything under control) and uncomfortable and develop the ability to walk the line at the edge of traction.

Hopefully that makes senses/helps? I would work on this in addition to a few autocrosses.

[wowwitsgau]

What worked best for me was getting a simulator - I recommend you get a simple racing seat/steering wheel/pedals setup and Assetto Corsa

[McLaren720s]

At Pacific Raceways we are consistently encouraged by the racing staff to experiment with the limits of traction in both dry and wet, particularly at turn 8 mid corner and track out (60-70 mph turn) where there is pretty much no chance of hitting anything if you spin out, as long as there is no other car behind you.

I still chicken out every time and then always walk away from the session kicking myself for not pushing harder in some of these safer turns to literally see what happens and learn to correct and prepare better for when something might happen but also this would improve my lap times as I'm nowhere near the limit most of the time because I'm too "afraid". But if you never experience it, you'll never get better at it.

[ATX_M3]

Not to plug a specific product but sharing my experience: I had a Garmin Catalyst for a few days before I had the idea that it would be great to have real-time feedback as I'm on track vs looking at data after the fact.

Ended up upgrading my helmet to have audio and plugged in my Catalyst to the helmet for turn-by-turn and lap-by-lap coaching to help string together the "virtual best" into the new norm.

I'm still not comfortable driving at the limit - I'm sure there is a LOT more left in any car from what I'm able to do. The Catalyst helped me break thru my plateau to find a new lower : faster plateau - it's an iterative process, I'm sure…

(That being said, my last time out on track, I had an instructor sitting right seat while I spun and tapped the wall @ COTA in my F80. Now I get to reset that mental hurdle while learning the G80 on track - I think my day job is safe from my career as a pro driver )

[RingRing]

I feel your pain. I haven't been on the track for 15 years but the plan is to start again this year. Part of the reason I got the G82 base. I'm not sure how far to push it and I don't think this car will be as forgiving when I go to far.

My first track car is a '65 Mustang. I started on good street tires but when I got good enough to kill a set of tires I switched to race tires. I had a choice, radials or bias ply. I went with the bias ply because they break away slowly and recover quickly. I never felt that fast because I learned smooth driving and ended up second fastest in the group for many years. I have a photo somewhere with the front tire in the air coming out of turn 5 at RA.

To bad bias ply is not an option unless you change cars.

So if I was going to start now learning the limit I think I would find a group needing more drivers for a lemon race. Lots of seat time in one day and a cheap car.
Or run a dirt oval in the crappy car group. You will learn a lot about the feeling of breaking loose and regaining control. And have a blast doing it.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ATX_M3

Not to plug a specific product but sharing my experience: I had a Garmin Catalyst for a few days before I had the idea that it would be great to have real-time feedback as I'm on track vs looking at data after the fact.

Ended up upgrading my helmet to have audio and plugged in my Catalyst to the helmet for turn-by-turn and lap-by-lap coaching to help string together the "virtual best" into the new norm.

I'm still not comfortable driving at the limit - I'm sure there is a LOT more left in any car from what I'm able to do. The Catalyst helped me break thru my plateau to find a new lower : faster plateau - it's an iterative process, I'm sure…

(That being said, my last time out on track, I had an instructor sitting right seat while I spun and tapped the wall @ COTA in my F80. Now I get to reset that mental hurdle while learning the G80 on track - I think my day job is safe from my career as a pro driver )

It takes me quite awhile to get my confidence back after a bad experience. Autocross helps but those triple digit speed spins aren't something one encounters a lot in autocross. Like anything, just building up to it at a pace I'm comfortable with was how I deal with it. Although there are some camps that say to just get in there right away and face it again. Hard to argue with than except we're playing with our lives and finances!

[BMWRacer523]

Autocross is best to get used to that feeling of driving right on the limit. of course its much slower speed so you need to factor that in at the track. Also, I recommend, skid pad as a very good tool to use as well. I started track in my e39 540 over 15 years ago but soon switched to an e30 as I wanted to get used to driving a slow car fast. Not quite a go-kart but definitely low power, low grip and no aero. You learn to conserve momentum. That's probably not practical for you.

[Cmassey3]

I only have 2 track days down at VIR so I'm still learning quite a bit but I was able to build up the confidence of having my E92 M3 close to the grip thresholds of street tires maybe a corner or two a lap by the end of the 2nd track day of the weekend, albeit with MDM engaged.

I started with a Miata on street and spun it in the rain joining the highway (lift-off over-steer), I just didn't know how to think about over-steer and didn't react in time. I brought this problem to sim racing to solve with a Fanatec setup and iRacing. While it doesn't account for the butt feel of a real car, it really helped train my mental imaging of how cars handle grip up to the threshold and over it.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's not nothing. For about $800 you can get a mid-tier rig that'll work fine. Biggest difference makers in making sim racing work for mental imaging for me was a true 1 to 1 scale steering wheel and a load-cell brake pedal.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by beachBmmr

A key component of going fast on track is pushing the car just past the limit of mechanical grip and sliding in, through and out of corners. You can see this in almost all professional racing, where the cars are getting thrown into corners, and are just slipping a bit powering out..

I wouldn't spend so much time looking at what other drivers are doing if you can't ask them to explain. They couldn't be making mistakes or trying something for fun that they know isn't helpful.

I would love to hear from other track drivers how they have pushed themselves to get more aggressive with sliding, and how they effectively and safely improved their comfort at slip angle...

Optimal slip angle of a tire (degree difference between direction of travel for contact patch and angle tire is pointing at) and sliding through a corner are different things. Sliding on street tires generally isn't a desirable thing because it's likely slower and those tires won't last. Maybe quicker in a time trail event, but not for long sessions where you're trying to have consistent quick laps.

The two ways to increase your comfort are repetition or figuring out your mental block. Repetition is self-explanatory, but the mental block might not be easy.

Are you scared of spinning out getting "black flagged?" Are you scared of crashing the car and writing it off? How about crashing the car and suffering a serious injury? These three are "fears" I would put in order of driver experience.

Novices worry about getting scolded by a driving instructor or event organizer, intermediates are worried about damaging their cars, and upper-intermediate/advanced are worried about injury. Certainly, you can have someone worried about all three and that's going to be the conservative driver progressing slowly.

I've always wanted to ask people like Randy Pobst and Ross Bentley if they're ever uncomfortable driving other peoples cars at limit and what would be those concerns. I'm assuming most of the time, them driving at 80% is our 110% so it looks at the limit and also they don't think about it. Don't think about crashing, don't think about car damage, don't think about parts failure, or anything else apart from driving.

I had a three day track weekend last week on the first day, my track car had some drivability issues regarding brakes and suspension. Instantly destroyed confidence in the car, so much so that I did a 6 hour round trip drive to switch cars. What destroyed my confidence with the new car the next two days? Forgetting to buy track insurance. I set a speed limit in the "danger zones" to run 10+ seconds a lap slower and everything was fine after that. I was able to work on my line a bit more and brake application to improve my sector times in the places that mattered. With the track car, I'm mostly worried about injury while the replacement car is definitely in the "I don't want to write it off" category. When the track car is working well and the backup car has track insurance, I don't think about car damage or injury at all and can push for PB times and even the occasional snap oversteer or power slide.

So what's holding you back?

[beachBmmr]

Originally Posted by Ximian

I wouldn't spend so much time looking at what other drivers are doing if you can't ask them to explain. They couldn't be making mistakes or trying something for fun that they know isn't helpful.

Optimal slip angle of a tire (degree difference between direction of travel for contact patch and angle tire is pointing at) and sliding through a corner are different things. Sliding on street tires generally isn't a desirable thing because it's likely slower and those tires won't last. Maybe quicker in a time trail event, but not for long sessions where you're trying to have consistent quick laps.

The two ways to increase your comfort are repetition or figuring out your mental block. Repetition is self-explanatory, but the mental block might not be easy.

Are you scared of spinning out getting "black flagged?" Are you scared of crashing the car and writing it off? How about crashing the car and suffering a serious injury? These three are "fears" I would put in order of driver experience.

Novices worry about getting scolded by a driving instructor or event organizer, intermediates are worried about damaging their cars, and upper-intermediate/advanced are worried about injury. Certainly, you can have someone worried about all three and that's going to be the conservative driver progressing slowly.

I've always wanted to ask people like Randy Pobst and Ross Bentley if they're ever uncomfortable driving other peoples cars at limit and what would be those concerns. I'm assuming most of the time, them driving at 80% is our 110% so it looks at the limit and also they don't think about it. Don't think about crashing, don't think about car damage, don't think about parts failure, or anything else apart from driving.

I had a three day track weekend last week on the first day, my track car had some drivability issues regarding brakes and suspension. Instantly destroyed confidence in the car, so much so that I did a 6 hour round trip drive to switch cars. What destroyed my confidence with the new car the next two days? Forgetting to buy track insurance. I set a speed limit in the "danger zones" to run 10+ seconds a lap slower and everything was fine after that. I was able to work on my line a bit more and brake application to improve my sector times in the places that mattered. With the track car, I'm mostly worried about injury while the replacement car is definitely in the "I don't want to write it off" category. When the track car is working well and the backup car has track insurance, I don't think about car damage or injury at all and can push for PB times and even the occasional snap oversteer or power slide.

So what's holding you back?

Thanks for the thoughts…

Id say repetition is certainly an approach I am taking, as I run on the same course frequently, albeit sometimes in different directions.

Staff,damage or injury…Id definitely say it's damage I am most concerned about. Although injury is possible its not what is on my mind on track. Even with track insurance balling up my g82 is something I dont want to do even if the financial impact is mitigated.

I am thinking that a dedicated track car would solve for the damage and injury fears to some extent, and thats where I am leaning these days

[McLaren720s]

For me personally, it's definitely potential damage to the car that's keeping me from approaching the limit more. As a single guy with a 90k daily driver, it would catastrophic to total the car. Both financially and psychologically.

Ideally, having a second dedicated track focused car that's substantially lower in value and cheaper to maintain is the way to go…..the problem is….I want to drive my M4

beachBmmr my instructor recommended me I get an E30 M3 full track spec (non-street legal). He said they cost around 18k and come fully gutted, racing suspension, on slicks etc. with about 170hp and weighs around 2500 lbs. He races in PRO3 class with it here at Pacific Raceways. He says he pulls 2g in the corners. Have you thought about getting something like that? You'd have to trailer it to the track but it's the best way to learn to go fast for a more reasonable price and maintenance with less worry.

[beachBmmr]

Originally Posted by McLaren720s

For me personally, it's definitely potential damage to the car that's keeping me from approaching the limit more. As a single guy with a 90k daily driver, it would catastrophic to total the car. Both financially and psychologically.

Ideally, having a second dedicated track focused car that's substantially lower in value and cheaper to maintain is the way to go…..the problem is….I want to drive my M4

beachBmmr my instructor recommended me I get an E30 M3 full track spec (non-street legal). He said they cost around 18k and come fully gutted, racing suspension, on slicks etc. with about 170hp and weighs around 2500 lbs. He races in PRO3 class with it here at Pacific Raceways. He says he pulls 2g in the corners. Have you thought about getting something like that? You'd have to trailer it to the track but it's the best way to learn to go fast for a more reasonable price and maintenance with less worry.

Im thinking about a Toyota gr86 or a subaru brz.

But I love driving the m4 too.

[BMWRacer523]

Originally Posted by McLaren720s

beachBmmr my instructor recommended me I get an E30 M3 full track spec (non-street legal). He said they cost around 18k and come fully gutted, racing suspension, on slicks etc. with about 170hp and weighs around 2500 lbs. He races in PRO3 class with it here at Pacific Raceways. He says he pulls 2g in the corners. Have you thought about getting something like that? You'd have to trailer it to the track but it's the best way to learn to go fast for a more reasonable price and maintenance with less worry.

He probably means an e30 (non M3) which is what PRO3 is. E30 M3 for $18k would be a dream (still regret selling mine). I would definitely agree that after some point (intermediate to advanced), a track focused car that is lighter (cheaper on consumables), lower power/grip (learn to drive momentum) and cheaper if you total it is the way to go. You can only compromise with a street/track combo for so long.

This is the path I went with an e30 and then into spec e30 racing before I raced higher powered e46/e92 m3s with aero. As you mention, the downside is trailer (and a truck to tow it with). It's another slippery slope. I went with pulling an open trailer with an X5 to F350 dually + 28" enclosed trailer. After a while towing that around the country became a PITA too not to mention storing it.

[ram9cc]

Originally Posted by beachBmmr

A key component of going fast on track is pushing the car just past the limit of mechanical grip and sliding in, through and out of corners. You can see this in almost all professional racing, where the cars are getting thrown into corners, and are just slipping a bit powering out..

I am struggling with getting to that point with my lap times plateauing well below the potential of the car.

I would love to hear from other track drivers how they have pushed themselves to get more aggressive with sliding, and how they effectively and safely improved their comfort at slip angle...

Consider this from the perspective of archery - This is a result, not a goal.

Certain practices involve repetition, returning to the same posture, the same motion, balancing weight, refining grip, release, etc - the results of which is a straight arrow, a specific sound, a turning bow, etc..

In the context of a track slide, this is a result of developing skill, not a goal in itself.

Finding the brake in point, the the turn in point, the ideal line, approaching this over and over and over, and developing finer and finer throttle control, and gradually expressing the limits of balance, limits of the tires,limits of grip, naturally without effort, the car will be faster, the slide with be controlled, the results will become apparent, the goal is not to slide the car through the corner, it is to develop the ideal control and balance.

The result appears naturally as a consequence of this effort.

[Montaver]

Is your goal to get better at being comfortable sliding the car or setting faster lap times? Being more comfortable on the limit will help you when you hit it, but there's more to going fast than sliding the car if that makes sense. For sliding around, hit the skid pad. For lower speed corners, try some AutoX. To get faster on the track a combo of seat time, coaching, video/data analysis (yours and other drivers) and really immersing yourself in the theory will all be helpful.

On coaching, having someone in the right seat who will really push you for a session or two works wonders and has helped me a lot in the past. Instructors who race or have raced are generally the most amenable to helping you find your limits. You can also send video in to somewhere like racers360 and they will feedback on your laps.