[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Guys, just like CanAutM3 said, the only way of really comparing is same track, same conditions, same driver etc.

Me and him have been driving on the same track (Circuit Mont-Tremblant) for many many years, him maybe 3x longer than me and there are just too many variables, track times give you an idea but you can't take two laps at different times, setups, drivers etc and think in absolute.

Exactly - that's precisely what I've been saying.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

ETA - sorry about the weight thing, I was thinking the 4RS is 1400-something KG and the CSL is 1625KG, so approx. 200kg but actually the GT4RS weighs 1490kg, so the difference is 135kg.

I agree with your conceptual framework, however, it is flawed in this case. These Ring lap times are at the absolute limit and they are optimizing every corner and run these cars at near or basically the fastest they can run a lap. Trying to find 10 more seconds when you’ve already run the fastest time a car is capable of, 10 seconds is a huge delta so I don’t agree there. A second or two I would agree but deltas that approach or exceed 1 second per minute of lap time is really significant.

The MB Project 1 just beat the previous lap record by 8 second - shattering the previous record. Only 8 seconds based on your logic that 10 seconds is a small. It’s a delta that is not at all easy to just come up with. As epic as the GT2RS and AMG Black Series are, neither can just go and make up 8-10 seconds on a lap.

HeelToeShift & HudsonHornett

TBH, both of you make sense; it just depends on what vantage point one looks at it.

The point that both of you agree on, from where I sit, is that there is room for improvement.

I'll settle for that; it makes for even sweeter a car than it's reported to be, and that makes it:

CSLicious!!

[gnx]

https://collectingcars.com/stories/c...130-000-m4-csl

[DAL33S]

Originally Posted by gnx

https://collectingcars.com/stories/c...130-000-m4-csl

I never understand Chris reviews as I enjoy watching him but…

Laughed the M2 CS… he goes I won't change no need. Then gets M2CS.

M5CS, stated it was good car but wouldn't own one, it's very expensive. Buys one and it's the best thing…

Will he own an M4 CSL next and change his mind.

After owning at M5 CS for 6 months I sold it because it wasn't special enough for me. I decided to stick with M5C and save the extra £££.

Onto the M4 CSL, for me it fits my requirements more, it's special to drive. Ok it's no lightweight but nor was the stock M4… so to improve on that chassis and to be more connected to the road and direct steering. Sign me up and I enjoy it!

[HudsonHornett]

Full Autocar Road test here:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/bmw/m4-csl/ride

Interestingly, they state that the M4 CSL would have beaten the GT4RS on their dry handling circuit if it didn't have mis-matched tyres on the day of testing, despite the GT4RS testing in more optimal conditions.

[PLF69]

From Autocar review:

This car is fast, dramatic and characterful; challenging as well as absorbing to drive; and fiery at times, while also being surprisingly mild-mannered at other times.

This can't be said of many cars.

[ScullyD]

https://www.thedrive.com/car-reviews...rce=linkin.bio

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

https://www.thedrive.com/car-reviews/2023-bmw-m4-csl-review-specs-price-performance-new-cars?utm_campaign=later-linkinbio-thedrive&utm_content=later-31221610&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkin.bio

Thanks for sharing ScullyD

This extract just about sums it all up:

"It all adds up to a car that is mesmerizingly capable of racing down a twisty road. Wholly engaging and dynamically top-shelf, the CSL somehow feels delightfully obedient and furiously unforgiving at the same time."

Would you agree with this statement Scully, or is it too early given you just picked her up?

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

https://www.thedrive.com/car-reviews...rce=linkin.bio

Thanks for posting Scully - what an awesome review that was!

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Thanks for sharing ScullyD

This extract just about sums it all up:

"It all adds up to a car that is mesmerizingly capable of racing down a twisty road. Wholly engaging and dynamically top-shelf, the CSL somehow feels delightfully obedient and furiously unforgiving at the same time."

Would you agree with this statement Scully, or is it too early given you just picked her up?

I think it's too early. I'm not surprised everyone who drove the car on Cup2Rs in the US press event loved it, and people who drove it in Europe in 40 degree weather on PS4s thought it was "ok". There is too much depth in the car to find, and it doesn't have that overly feelsome steering of the CS cars that make those feel special.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

I think it's too early. I'm not surprised everyone who drove the car on Cup2Rs in the US press event loved it, and people who drove it in Europe in 40 degree weather on PS4s thought it was "ok". There is too much depth in the car to find, and it doesn't have that overly feelsome steering of the CS cars that make those feel special.

Drove the car yesterday in -3.5c (25f) temperature on winter tires and have to say the right tires for the right weather change everything. Plenty of grip and good manners, better than Cup2Rs in 10-15c (50-60f) temps. 40f with PS4S is not good at all.

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Full Autocar Road test here:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/bmw/m4-csl/ride

Interestingly, they state that the M4 CSL would have beaten the GT4RS on their dry handling circuit if it didn't have mis-matched tyres on the day of testing, despite the GT4RS testing in more optimal conditions.

The Drive "Adaptive M suspension with electronically controlled damping is also sensibly serious. The ride is definitely on the communicative side because of course it is, but it’s actually far from brutal and not nearly as rough as it probably could’ve been considering this car’s abilities. You don’t get the sense that BMW has programmed in much harshness for harshness' sake here."

Autcocar "Very few cars that look quite so aggressive, or which harbor quite so much outright track purpose, also ride and handle with such sophistication."

So those are the two most recent reviews here talking about the suspension being really good and sophisticated which I experience and mentioned here before. You get other reviewers saying it's too stiff or harsh which is not true.
Following the CSL reviews closely which is a car that I drove myself. Having also driven the M2 CS has made me realize that some of those reviewers just have caned statement based on the car. Like if it's a track car it has to be stiff and harsh and so on. It seems a lot of them don't know how to judge a car properly and maybe they were just in the right place in the right time and that's how they got the job. It definitely eroded my trust in a lot of reviewers.

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by PLF69

From Autocar review:

This car is fast, dramatic and characterful; challenging as well as absorbing to drive; and fiery at times, while also being surprisingly mild-mannered at other times.

This can't be said of many cars.

The Drive "This is a bit of a shame because the 2023 BMW M4 CSL is an insanely good car and will undoubtedly go down as one of the best BMW has ever done. Nimbler than M5 CS, a handily better handler than even the E92 M3, and a magnitude sharper and rowdier than the Competition (hah), the M4 CSL wakes up every single day and, without fail, chooses violence."

This is why I love this car. I'm not looking for a daily 4 door Xdrive commuter like an M5CS. I wanted something that can still be driven on the road but aggressive, challenging and rewarding and I think the M4 CSL is just that. Once you start bonding with this car it's such a tool and a good buddy.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife

Autocar "This is a bit of a shame because the 2023 BMW M4 CSL is an insanely good car and will undoubtedly go down as one of the best BMW has ever done. Nimbler than M5 CS, a handily better handler than even the E92 M3, and a magnitude sharper and rowdier than the Competition (hah), the M4 CSL wakes up every single day and, without fail, chooses violence."

This is why I love this car. I'm not looking for a daily 4 door Xdrive commuter like an M5CS. I wanted something that can still be driven on the road but aggressive, challenging and rewarding and I think the M4 CSL is just that. Once you start bonding with this car it's such a tool and a good buddy.

That quote is from that "drive" review but I think it's the best one I've read. The guy evaluated the car properly, didn't get hung up on history.

[HudsonHornett]

Looks like the M4 CSL is going to feature in EVO.

The car of the year mag is due out on 7th December.

I'm gonna call it, I think the Toyota GR86 is gonna win!

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Looks like the M4 CSL is going to feature in EVO.

The car of the year mag is due out on 7th December.

I'm gonna call it, I think the Toyota GR86 is gonna win!

Here is my predicted order of finish:

1. 296 GTB
2. GT4 RS
3. GR86
4. McLaren Artura
5. M4 CSL
6. MC20
7. R8 RWD
8. SL55

A shame the Lambo Tecnica didn't come, I think it would have won. Like Dick Meaden said last year, if the Alfa GTAm was there, it would have been his #1 but Alfa forgot to send them the car.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Here is my predicted order of finish:

1. 296 GTB
2. GT4 RS
3. GR86
4. McLaren Artura
5. M4 CSL
6. MC20
7. R8 RWD
8. SL55

A shame the Lambo Tecnica didn't come, I think it would have won. Like Dick Meaden said last year, if the Alfa GTAm was there, it would have been his #1 but Alfa forgot to send them the car.

My predicted order:

1. GR86
2. GT4 RS
3. 296 GTB
4. McLaren Artura
5. Maserati
6. M4 CSL
7. Audi R8
8. Mercedes SL

My reasoning? EVO loves a manual above all else and the GR86 is the only manual plus it's meant to be completely awesome. Also EVO loves a Porsche (they nearly always win COTY). So I don't think Ferrari will beat them.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

My predicted order:

1. GR86
2. GT4 RS
3. 296 GTB
4. McLaren Artura
5. Maserati
6. M4 CSL
7. Audi R8
8. Mercedes SL

My reasoning? EVO loves a manual above all else and the GR86 is the only manual plus it's meant to be completely awesome. Also EVO loves a Porsche (they nearly always win COTY). So I don't think Ferrari will beat them.

The M5 CS and STO did best the manual GT3 last year. But I'm excited to compare our predictions!

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

The M5 CS and STO did best the manual GT3 last year. But I'm excited to compare our predictions!

True but the GT3 missed out because it's a bit harsh for the road - also in the winter in the UK, the M5 would feel better than just about any car. In the summer, different story.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

My predicted order:

1. GR86
2. GT4 RS
3. 296 GTB
4. McLaren Artura
5. Maserati
6. M4 CSL
7. Audi R8
8. Mercedes SL

My reasoning? EVO loves a manual above all else and the GR86 is the only manual plus it's meant to be completely awesome. Also EVO loves a Porsche (they nearly always win COTY). So I don't think Ferrari will beat them.

FWIW, I think the CSL will have a disadvantage; CUP2R. If they tested it in the dry, I'd rank it 2nd or 3rd, in the wet; 5 at best

1. Audi R8
2. McLaren Artura
3. GR86
4. GT4 RS
5. M4CSL
6. 296 GTB
7. Mercedes SL
8. Maserati

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

FWIW, I think the CSL will have a disadvantage; CUP2R. If they tested it in the dry, I'd rank it 2nd or 3rd, in the wet; 5 at best

1. Audi R8
2. McLaren Artura
3. GR86
4. GT4 RS
5. M4CSL
6. 296 GTB
7. Mercedes SL
8. Maserati

It's not the new R8 GT that was just reviewed, it's the old R8 RWD. It's not going to finish first over the new stuff. Especially since it's not a 5 star car and the 296 and GT4 RS and GR86 all are.

Side note, i'd love to see EVO do a group test of the CLK63 AMG Black, Project 8 Touring, Alfa GTAm and M4 CSL (i think i've said that already). I suspect the M4 CSL probably finishes 4th in that group test as well, but thats a dream test for me. Hopefully i can convince someone there to do it.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

It's not the new R8 GT that was just reviewed, it's the old R8 RWD. It's not going to finish first over the new stuff. Especially since it's not a 5 star car and the 296 and GT4 RS and GR86 all are.

Damn ScullyD

I missed that altogether, in that case, R8 relegated to 6th but still in front of the Benz

I do really like the McLaren but don't think it could cut the mustard for the top position (fun factor is tipping in Toyota's favour)

Would like to think it would be the GT4RS but somehow, the reviews I've read aren't as great as I thought they would be (but then again, I'm nota Porsche expert)