[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by IB M

I'll take the E46CSL over both of the new cars.

E46 CSL is a great car but it's that antiquated transmission that would do my head in!

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by HNSKP

Maintaining a GT car (or any P car) isn't exactly cheap either, even at a good indy. The Evora's Toyota engine is admittedly not as special nor as free revving as a GT4 engine but parts are readily available and the later run of Evora cars are known to be reliable even with track use. Also add in the cost of fixing the GT4's long gear ratios ($12k or so). 718 GT4 production is not limited so prices may not hold as well as traditional GT cars, but who knows. Meanwhile, <350 Evoras were sold each year in the US.

By all accounts I've seen, the Evora is a much better road car with compliant suspension and excellent body control while a GT4 will rattle your teeth out on real roads. I'm sure the GT4 is better on the track but below 8/10s I'd take the Evora. I can (and have) actually fit a toddler in the back.

My point: both amazing cars that excel in different areas. Don't assume GT4 is always better.

The resale alone is worth the P car. Just my opinion. They hold better than anything. Especially the GT cars

[IB M]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

E46 CSL is a great car but it's that antiquated transmission that would do my head in!

Yep SMG no good / 6MT swap - might seem like sacrilege but a few have been done.

[HNSKP]

Originally Posted by WAB

Based on your comments, You've never owned a GT4 have you?

Nope. Would love to if I could afford a 3rd car.
What was your Evora ownership like?

[HNSKP]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

The resale alone is worth the P car. Just my opinion. They hold better than anything. Especially the GT cars

Definitely agree about resale value, especially when properly spec'ed.

[WAB]

Originally Posted by HNSKP

Nope. Would love to if I could afford a 3rd car.
What was your Evora ownership like?

I never pretended like I knew what it's like to drive/own one… that's the difference.

I just find it funny that so many people on here regurgitate stuff they've heard about cars they've never driven.

I'd like to know if anyone here has owned recent M cars AND Porsche GT cars and what they prefer and why. You already know my perspective

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by WAB

I never pretended like I knew what it's like to drive/own one… that's the difference.

I just find it funny that so many people on here regurgitate stuff they've heard about cars they've never driven.

I'd like to know if anyone here has owned recent M cars AND Porsche GT cars and what they prefer and why. You already know my perspective

I've owned all the recent M cars (F82, E93 and G82, still own the last 2).

With a few friends who are Porschephiles and because of Turo, I've driven the latest 911s in both PDK and manual, with the 911 GTS being driven on the track.

And I've never driven a GT3, but I've ridden in both the 991 and 992 GT3s, on road and on track.

My summary:

Non-GT Porsches are great cars, but, to steal from my Forum colleague, they're almost too "clinical". So capable that they're almost unexciting on the road unless you're really pushing it, which then is just too dangerous since the capabilities are so high. On the track, all 911s are sensational.

My issue is that non-GT 911 prices are quite high. A base 911 is still like $120k, but it will be pretty stark inside, so you're paying a premium simply for its engineering prowess. You may not even get a backup camera for $120k, and the radio will stink. It's around $150k for a well-optioned 911, which is just too much, IMO, unless you're tracking it. Hec, I'd rather own the more nimble Boxster/Cayman, but you lose the 911 panache. But if you have the money and want the most durable and capable sports car, hard to argue with a 911.

The GTs are sensational. The engine is amazing, just as everyone says. And the grip is unreal, even more so now in the 992 GT3. I would love to own one, but now the prices for GT models are sky-high. But if you love driving, and will spend time on the track, worth every penny if you're a true driving enthusiast (not just a car enthusiast).

The fact that BMW Ms get compared to any Porsche GT product is simply a testament to how good the M cars are, but, in reality, there's no comparison, price notwithstanding. A GT3 is on a whole other plane of excitement and joy for driving enthusiasts, almost like an oversized go-kart. It's hard to imagine the M4 CSL being a true alternative to a GT3 in terms of pure experience, but for the price, it likely makes a compelling case to have the rawest BMW. Pound for pound, I'd likely still rather have the new GT4 RS, but I believe those are all spoken for, and the markup is likely at least $50k above the $150k asking price so...the CSL is likely a cool alternative. And maybe so is the new Lotus Emira, and the AMG GTC, and a host of other mid-level sports cars. It's nice to have choices.

But I do believe M cars make a compelling alternative to non-GT 911s (sans the Turbo). M cars can be more playful, less serious, costs less, and may offer more cool options (like the HUD and Drift Analyzer). Given that 911s are purpose-built sports cars and M cars are not, you have to give the BMW engineers credit for competitively competing with such a well-built and evolved sports car as a 911.

[HNSKP]

Originally Posted by WAB

I never pretended like I knew what it's like to drive/own one… that's the difference.

I just find it funny that so many people on here regurgitate stuff they've heard about cars they've never driven.

I'd like to know if anyone here has owned recent M cars AND Porsche GT cars and what they prefer and why. You already know my perspective

Not owning one does not equate to never been in one. I was a passenger in a 981 Gt4 on less than pristine roads. Don't need to be behind the wheel to assess the dampening and how it handles bumps. It's no secret that the GT4 suspension is more track oriented whereas the Evora is tuned for British roads. GT cars have less compliance, relatively speaking.

I'm not saying the Evora is an OVERALL better car in any way, shape, or form. Just comparing a specific aspect that may be more or less important depending on one's usage and preferences.

I've driven an early model Evora and 981 Cayman S on the same canyon roads and the difference in dealing with midcorner bumps is noticeable. Since I do most of my fun driving in the canyons, this is pretty important to me. Not apples to apples with your car, I admit. But those are my personal observations, not regurgitating anything.

I'm glad you enjoy your car, as you rightly should.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

I've owned all the recent M cars (F82, E93 and G82, still own the last 2).

With a few friends who are Porschephiles and because of Turo, I've driven the latest 911s in both PDK and manual, with the 911 GTS being driven on the track.

And I've never driven a GT3, but I've ridden in both the 991 and 992 GT3s, on road and on track.

My summary:

Non-GT Porsches are great cars, but, to steal from my Forum colleague, they're almost too "clinical". So capable that they're almost unexciting on the road unless you're really pushing it, which then is just too dangerous since the capabilities are so high. On the track, all 911s are sensational.

My issue is that non-GT 911 prices are quite high. A base 911 is still like $120k, but it will be pretty stark inside, so you're paying a premium simply for its engineering prowess. You may not even get a backup camera for $120k, and the radio will stink. It's around $150k for a well-optioned 911, which is just too much, IMO, unless you're tracking it. Hec, I'd rather own the more nimble Boxster/Cayman, but you lose the 911 panache. But if you have the money and want the most durable and capable sports car, hard to argue with a 911.

The GTs are sensational. The engine is amazing, just as everyone says. And the grip is unreal, even more so now in the 992 GT3. I would love to own one, but now the prices for GT models are sky-high. But if you love driving, and will spend time on the track, worth every penny if you're a true driving enthusiast (not just a car enthusiast).

The fact that BMW Ms get compared to any Porsche GT product is simply a testament to how good the M cars are, but, in reality, there's no comparison, price notwithstanding. A GT3 is on a whole other plane of excitement and joy for driving enthusiasts, almost like an oversized go-kart. It's hard to imagine the M4 CSL being a true alternative to a GT3 in terms of pure experience, but for the price, it likely makes a compelling case to have the rawest BMW. Pound for pound, I'd likely still rather have the new GT4 RS, but I believe those are all spoken for, and the markup is likely at least $50k above the $150k asking price so...the CSL is likely a cool alternative. And maybe so is the new Lotus Emira, and the AMG GTC, and a host of other mid-level sports cars. It's nice to have choices.

But I do believe M cars make a compelling alternative to non-GT 911s (sans the Turbo). M cars can be more playful, less serious, costs less, and may offer more cool options (like the HUD and Drift Analyzer). Given that 911s are purpose-built sports cars and M cars are not, you have to give the BMW engineers credit for competitively competing with such a well-built and evolved sports car as a 911.

That is the exact way I describe driving the GT3. It's like a go kart on steroids. I think many people who have not driven a GT3 make comparisons to another car or an M car. You HAVE to drive one to see how much fun it is!! Especially a manual. It's butter

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

That is the exact way I describe driving the GT3. It's like a go kart on steroids. I think many people who have not driven a GT3 make comparisons to another car or an M car. You HAVE to drive one to see how much fun it is!! Especially a manual. It's butter

I think this is fair. If I could have a new Porsche GT car, I would. They are awesome, but you can't have one, so this is a great alternative and one that I think nails what I want from it. I just can't wait to drive one and I think that I will genuinely love it.

[Sphygmomanometer]

Originally Posted by WAB

I never pretended like I knew what it's like to drive/own one… that's the difference.

I just find it funny that so many people on here regurgitate stuff they've heard about cars they've never driven.

I'd like to know if anyone here has owned recent M cars AND Porsche GT cars and what they prefer and why. You already know my perspective

I love the unrivalled bity front end of recent M-cars. The F87 M2 Competition's is mighty, the G8x's even more so. It gives me the confidence to throw any radius corner at it. The (991.2) GT3 is more pedantic. It demands you to be more deliberate and clean with your inputs, breaking, steering, stepping on the go-pedal. It's incredible how not-rear-engined Porsche have made it feel but there are moments, dependening on camber, road surface, tyre temperature, where you can turn the steering wheel without it having an effect on the direction of the nose (at least on Dunlop's not very satisfying Race 2s). What I do like though, is how the GT3 let's you feel the edge of grip at the rear through your bottom (maybe also depending on the tyre). The only problem here is, the G8xs don't feel light, the M2C doesn't feel light. The GT3 feels lighter with its 200-300 kg less.

Speaking of steering. Porsche's steering is supposed to be 'the best' or at least 'very good'. I like that it feels direct and reasonably heavy at speed, almost unassisted but it's not a revelation either. The FK8 Civic Type R's is (almost) on par. The M2C's is a bit 'stiff' by comparison but they're not worlds apart. I have no trouble believing that the 997's hydraulically assisted steering is peak steering. But as I have not driven a 997 911, the best steering rack I have come across so far is still the the E60/E61 M5's.

Let's stick with tactility for a moment and talk about the gear shift. The reality DOES live up to the legend this time. It's so satisfying, I love shifting down from fourth into third. Pedal spacing and throttle response is great, even I can blip it (I'm no heel-and-toe god). It's chunky, it feels mechanical and heavy. But here again, the FK8 Civic Type R's is (almost) on par. Now, this is a source of pain with BMWs (for me). BMW has not invested anything in its manual gearboxes. While the shift may be alright, the ECU set up is abysmal, the revs drop so slowly you could easily double-de-clutch on every single shift. That's not ok. I recently drove an E85 Z4 M and it was significantly more satisfying to shift gears. Oh, and that engine ...

The engine. What car maker could ever dare to pitch its engine against one from the 'Bayerische Motorenwerke'? At least that's what it was up to S54, S65 and S85. Yes, S55 and S58, et al. are very competent engines but for me they're nowhere near as charismatic and exciting as the nat-asp ones. Now you may say they were forced due to emissions regulations but nobody can convince me that BMW wasn't capable of having at least one sporty model with a nat-asp engine. The S55 is fun, I feel like the M2(C(S)) is rarely dead serious and often puts you up to mischief, when it's wet and I love that. But, I also love when a car almost begs you to rev it. The E46 M3 does that, the E6x M5 does that, and the GT3 does that. You get hooked on revs. That doesn't happen in the M2, that doesn't happen in the FK8 Civic Type R, and I think both cars would have been better with nat-asp engines (even if less powerful). The GT3's flat-six is just incredible at high revs and it's true what people say. Go beyond 8000 rpm and enter a world of fizz and excitement. It feels solid, like it could pull off a Captain America i.e. it could do this all day.

A few words about the seats: Love the GT3's carbon buckets, love the FK8 Civic Type R's (they're really good). The M2C's are a bit weaker in that regard.

Sorry for the essay.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by xXMPowerXx

All porch's are boring. Yawn.

No way I'd ever buy one. They all look the same and sound like VW bugs. Niope!

I'll have some of what you are smoking!

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by MmmmmM2

I'll have some of what you are smoking!

That may be the dumbest post ever!! Lol. gT3's are one of the best sounding cars on the planet. F-80/82 G-80/82 some of the worst at their price point. Has to be trolling or is deaf 🧏*♂️

[Davil]

That was an interesting review. But it ends up being more a commentary on the driver's preference for one that is manual and naturally aspirated.

I have two cars, same weight, same power. One is a turbo six DCT. One is naturally aspirated manual V8. Each delivers a very different driving experience. Which do I prefer? Both.

[Purekoryo]

Originally Posted by WAB

Based on your comments, You've never owned a GT4 have you?

Haha I was thinking the same thing! I actually daily'ed my 718 gt4 manual for over a year. One of the most complaint suspension there is. I also had solid castor pucks too and was fine.

Oh and it had carbon buckets too.

[xXMPowerXx]

Originally Posted by MmmmmM2

I'll have some of what you are smoking!

Originally Posted by G MONEY

That may be the dumbest post ever!! Lol. gT3's are one of the best sounding cars on the planet. F-80/82 G-80/82 some of the worst at their price point. Has to be trolling or is deaf ��*♂️

Ha!! You trolls come on a BMW forum and you expect everyone to like what you like? Especially a porch!

Ha!

Here’s what I’m smoking and drinking. And what I’m drinking in!!

For sound, try a small displacement, high revving V10 and V12. Don’t forget the doors while you get out of your porch.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

The resale alone is worth the P car. Just my opinion. They hold better than anything. Especially the GT cars

Originally Posted by HNSKP

Definitely agree about resale value, especially when properly spec'ed.

Yeah…..



….if you don't drive it. Put miles on that car and the resale plummets.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Yeah…..



….if you don't drive it. Put miles on that car and the resale plummets.

Then don't buy it.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by xXMPowerXx

Ha!! You trolls come on a BMW forum and you expect everyone to like what you like? Especially a porch!

Ha!

Here's what I'm smoking and drinking. And what I'm drinking in!!

For sound, try a small displacement, high revving V10 and V12. Don't forget the doors while you get out of your porch.

Get those legs some sun for gods sake. 👻. Lol. I like Lambos. I would 1000% turbo it if I ever bought one

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

Then don't buy it.

Huh?! I don't factor in. I have my P-Car. People in P-Car camp do, indeed, care about mileage though. That's the point.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Huh?! I don't factor in. I have my P-Car. People in P-Car camp do, indeed, care about mileage though. That's the point.

Good for them I guess. Everyone is different. I buy my shit to drive. Couldn't give 2 fucks about what it's going to sell for when I'm done with it. I know some Ferrari dudes who sell before certain miles. Just not my thing. I'm just saying for the point of the thread. If your choosing between the 2 cars and put the same miles on them, I think the P will get a better return. That's all

[masd79]

I test drove a gt4 and then came home and drove my m4 g83 and I have to say the m4 is better. The gt4 was manual and was fun to drive, and at the moment it felt amazing especially the screaming 8k rpm shifts, but it felt like a very expensive version of a type R civic or an sti. Again, it was very nice and fun, but i was surprised to feel more drama and fun in my m4. The shifts, speed and even the sound in my m4 felt better… I think many of us are just jaded because it's a P car. Im curios about the gt3 now…I think the g8x is highly underrated because it's a bmw and not a Porsche. Will drive a gt3 soon at PEC here in atlanta.