[WAB]

Originally Posted by melanthius

Agree with this… P-cars are great if you have endless funding but you shouldn't, and don't need to spend $225k+ to have an exciting car


I think a good example would be lotus evora gt/ emira.

For 100k you get a lot of thrills in a pure analog sports car with incredible steering, nice noises, good looks, and much less common than a Porsche costing 2x as much.

I think CSL probably fits a similar bill but would really like to see DCT

You can get a GT4 at MSRP with a little effort making some calls and negotiating. That's a better car/engine than the Evora and will definitely retain its value better.

[Sphygmomanometer]

As somebody living in Switzerland (where pricing is a bit different aka insane) and who owns a 991.2 GT3 Touring I'd like to weigh in.

In Switzerland there is a CHF 1k difference in MSRP and you can get cars at MSRP in Switzerland because they are hopelessly overpriced. Weak EUR/GBP exacerbate the problem: An M3 is CHF 35k more expensive in Switzerland than it is in Germany, a GT3 RS roughly CHF 100k more than in the UK.

The other thing is, here it was definitely easier to get a GT3 than the M4 CSL (now they're both 'gone' though).

In terms of pricing they are absolutely comparable. And here's my problem:

The M4 CSL is just not special enough at that price point. You can have a 9000 rpm, screaming flat-six mated to splendid 6-speed manual gearbox when you go down the Porsche-route. Andreas Preuninger rightly noted that the M3 CSL was a worthy adversary to the 996 GT3 but those times are gone, and I don't even care about the Nürburgring lap times (or how they are on track).

If you've got (either) one of them. Congratulations, enjoy! But this one's a forgone conclusion.

[melanthius]

Originally Posted by WAB

You can get a GT4 at MSRP with a little effort making some calls and negotiating. That's a better car/engine than the Evora and will definitely retain its value better.

Not everyone wants a GT4 to be frank

[WAB]

Originally Posted by melanthius

Not everyone wants a GT4 to be frank

Not everyone wants an Emiro either. What's your point?

You brought up lotus as an alternative to expensive GT cars but in reality they aren't much more expensive and probably less expensive factoring in resale. GT4 is the closest competitor to Emra

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by Sphygmomanometer

As somebody living in Switzerland (where pricing is a bit different aka insane) and who owns a 991.2 GT3 Touring I'd like to weigh in.

In Switzerland there is a CHF 1k difference in MSRP and you can get cars at MSRP in Switzerland because they are hopelessly overpriced. Weak EUR/GBP exacerbate the problem: An M3 is CHF 35k more expensive in Switzerland than it is in Germany, a GT3 RS roughly CHF 100k more than in the UK.

The other thing is, here it was definitely easier to get a GT3 than the M4 CSL (now they're both 'gone' though).

In terms of pricing they are absolutely comparable. And here's my problem:

The M4 CSL is just not special enough at that price point. You can have a 9000 rpm, screaming flat-six mated to splendid 6-speed manual gearbox when you go down the Porsche-route. Andreas Preuninger rightly noted that the M3 CSL was a worthy adversary to the 996 GT3 but those times are gone, and I don't even care about the Nürburgring lap times (or how they are on track).

If you've got (either) one of them. Congratulations, enjoy! But this one's a forgone conclusion.

In the US, a 992 starts at $161,000, and often ends up around $200,000, and THEN the dealer likely adds a markup.

So, yes, if the pricing is close, a GT3 easily wins, and it better win, because it's a purpose-built sports car, designed from the ground up.

But if there's a $50k delta (or more) between an M4 CSL and a GT3, the CSL is a compelling alternative for some. For me, I'd much rather have a CSL than a similarly-priced 911 GTS priced, or a 911 Targa $30k more.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by Sphygmomanometer

As somebody living in Switzerland (where pricing is a bit different aka insane) and who owns a 991.2 GT3 Touring I'd like to weigh in.

In Switzerland there is a CHF 1k difference in MSRP and you can get cars at MSRP in Switzerland because they are hopelessly overpriced. Weak EUR/GBP exacerbate the problem: An M3 is CHF 35k more expensive in Switzerland than it is in Germany, a GT3 RS roughly CHF 100k more than in the UK.

The other thing is, here it was definitely easier to get a GT3 than the M4 CSL (now they're both 'gone' though).

In terms of pricing they are absolutely comparable. And here's my problem:

The M4 CSL is just not special enough at that price point. You can have a 9000 rpm, screaming flat-six mated to splendid 6-speed manual gearbox when you go down the Porsche-route. Andreas Preuninger rightly noted that the M3 CSL was a worthy adversary to the 996 GT3 but those times are gone, and I don't even care about the Nürburgring lap times (or how they are on track).

If you've got (either) one of them. Congratulations, enjoy! But this one's a forgone conclusion.

I agree that the GT3 is the better car - but I don't agree that the CSL is poor value at this price point. I mean check out the Aston Martin Vantage F1 - great car, awesome to drive but £150k instead of £130k of the CSL. The CSL is lighter than that car, rarer, just as fast if not faster and just as practical. Looks of that car are divisive too! But I think it looks great!

[xXMPowerXx]

Originally Posted by supershaft

I'd bet he's never owned anything he says he drives. Porsches are universally praised and to dismiss it based off looks just makes you sound like a poser.

edit: he probably valets those cars

Are you down for a little wager, eh sport?

And that green Caymen looking thing is cool, but it'll still sound like an opposing VW bug or WRX.

I'll pass and you can have it!!

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

In the US, a 992 starts at $161,000, and often ends up around $200,000, and THEN the dealer likely adds a markup.

So, yes, if the pricing is close, a GT3 easily wins, and it better win, because it's a purpose-built sports car, designed from the ground up.

But if there's a $50k delta (or more) between an M4 CSL and a GT3, the CSL is a compelling alternative for some. For me, I'd much rather have a CSL than a similarly-priced 911 GTS priced, or a 911 Targa $30k more.

I'd either pay the extra $50k or buy something else. Arguably, the prior generation was more unique and special. Water injection plus a DCT. Personally, I have no interest in a 8ZF sports car/track car. I think the G80 CS will be the more attractive option as a fast/fun DD.

[Purekoryo]

992 GTS with Lightweight pack is a much better comparison. But admittedly, I'd take the 992 GTS over the CSL.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by WWM3

I'd either pay the extra $50k or buy something else. Arguably, the prior generation was more unique and special. Water injection plus a DCT. Personally, I have no interest in a 8ZF sports car/track car. I think the G80 CS will be the more attractive option as a fast/fun DD.

Originally Posted by Purekoryo

992 GTS with Lightweight pack is a much better comparison. But admittedly, I'd take the 992 GTS over the CSL.

OK. It's your money, buy what you want.

And for those that choose a CSL, or a Mercedes AMG GTS, or an Alfa Romeo, or an M5 CS, or a Lotus Emira, they're each buying what they want.

Thank goodness, because life would be pretty boring if we all made the same choice and preferred the same stuff.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

I got one at MSRP but I have to wait 2 years....sometime early 2025 and I ordered it a year ago!

Where? I don't know one person in real life who has obtained one at MSRP (…and I've only heard claims about MSRP GT3's online; I'm sure somebody who has already purchased multiple cars from a dealership or is friends with the owner(s) has the best chances). I would wait two years for a GT3 at MSRP. My 992 C2S would serve me just fine until then.

[flsupraguy]

Originally Posted by WAB

The journalist is a self proclaimed BMW M fanboy and still prefers the GT3 hahaha

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

In the US, a 992 starts at $161,000, and often ends up around $200,000, and THEN the dealer likely adds a markup.

So, yes, if the pricing is close, a GT3 easily wins, and it better win, because it's a purpose-built sports car, designed from the ground up.

But if there's a $50k delta (or more) between an M4 CSL and a GT3, the CSL is a compelling alternative for some. For me, I'd much rather have a CSL than a similarly-priced 911 GTS priced, or a 911 Targa $30k more.

Pretty well stated. In the real world, most GT3's have, at a minimum, a $75k ADM on top of the MSRP. That makes most GT3's $275k+, which is a lot of money. I know some people who paid mid-300's.

[Higgs Boson]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Pretty well stated. In the real world, most GT3's have, at a minimum, a $75k ADM on top of the MSRP. That makes most GT3's $275k+, which is a lot of money. I know some people who paid mid-300's.

safe to say a 992 GT3 in the US is double the price of the CSL and it's 100% not worth double.

a 992 GT3 sticker vs sticker with the CSL? I think I might spend 205k for a 992 GT3 vs 140 CSL but even then I am not 100% on it. The CSL is a more special car (doesn't mean technically or clinically better on track) than the GT3 and that is a large part of the reason I am buying it instead of a 991.

I can say I have laid my hands on probably 40 992 GT3s and I am not sure I will ever see another CSL.

Get out of the way!

[Michael629]

Lovely video of an old knob talking and driving

[SexyRoger]

Originally Posted by CC3586

Review by CAR Magazine

Enjoy

LOL, apples to oranges. CSL should be compared to a GTS, GT3 is a whole new beast even without the spoiler.

You're comparing it to a car that is nearly 30 seconds faster around the ring. The old GTS is inline with the new CSL as far as times are concerned.

The sound of that flat six is mind blowing - makes me want to run and try to find one.

[Nachbar]

Another comparison by Carwow

[HotRodM4]

Originally Posted by Nachbar

Another comparison by Carwow

Mr. Gear Change 😂

[HNSKP]

Originally Posted by WAB

Not everyone wants an Emiro either. What's your point?

You brought up lotus as an alternative to expensive GT cars but in reality they aren't much more expensive and probably less expensive factoring in resale. GT4 is the closest competitor to Emra

Maintaining a GT car (or any P car) isn't exactly cheap either, even at a good indy. The Evora's Toyota engine is admittedly not as special nor as free revving as a GT4 engine but parts are readily available and the later run of Evora cars are known to be reliable even with track use. Also add in the cost of fixing the GT4's long gear ratios ($12k or so). 718 GT4 production is not limited so prices may not hold as well as traditional GT cars, but who knows. Meanwhile, <350 Evoras were sold each year in the US.

By all accounts I've seen, the Evora is a much better road car with compliant suspension and excellent body control while a GT4 will rattle your teeth out on real roads. I'm sure the GT4 is better on the track but below 8/10s I'd take the Evora. I can (and have) actually fit a toddler in the back.

My point: both amazing cars that excel in different areas. Don't assume GT4 is always better.

[WAB]

Originally Posted by HNSKP

Maintaining a GT car (or any P car) isn't exactly cheap either, even at a good indy. The Evora's Toyota engine is admittedly not as special nor as free revving as a GT4 engine but parts are readily available and the later run of Evora cars are known to be reliable even with track use. Also add in the cost of fixing the GT4's long gear ratios ($12k or so). 718 GT4 production is not limited so prices may not hold as well as traditional GT cars, but who knows. Meanwhile, <350 Evoras were sold each year in the US.

By all accounts I've seen, the Evora is a much better road car with compliant suspension and excellent body control while a GT4 will rattle your teeth out on real roads. I'm sure the GT4 is better on the track but below 8/10s I'd take the Evora. I can (and have) actually fit a toddler in the back.

My point: both amazing cars that excel in different areas. Don't assume GT4 is always better.

Based on your comments, You've never owned a GT4 have you?

[IB M]

I'll take the E46CSL over both of the new cars.