[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

Congrats Bimmerfun82 and I also don’t think this car will be falling off like the current gen car. That new rear motor will probably take care of that. I think it’s a high 10sec car. But, they have to be careful with what they do, because that’s in Model S LR range. Which will cannibalize Model S LR sales.

Thanks! I considered the S plaid and LR, but I couldn’t get past the value at this $55k all in price. Almost like they made a mistake with the pricing, since they priced to qualify for tax credit but the LR doesn’t qualify for it. Agree this car will be very, very fast.

[Limegrntaln]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Thanks! I considered the S plaid and LR, but I couldn’t get past the value at this $55k all in price. Almost like they made a mistake with the pricing, since they priced to qualify for tax credit but the LR doesn’t qualify for it. Agree this car will be very, very fast.

It’s not exactly “priced” to “quality” for the tax credit. The battery pack, assembled at Nevadas gigafactory is on the list for the tax credit. The long range isn’t.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

It’s not exactly “priced” to “quality” for the tax credit. The battery pack, assembled at Nevadas gigafactory is on the list for the tax credit. The long range isn’t.

Oh, interesting - but you can’t deny they priced to qualify - seems lower than it should be.

[kgelfen360]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Oh, interesting - but you can’t deny they priced to qualify - seems lower than it should be.

They price to sell more cars and be unltra competitive. They are trying to make difficult for other companies to compete with them.
Look at the stock performance they need more sales.
Yes it is a great deal but it’s not a mistake. It’s a marketing strategy.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by kgelfen360

They price to sell more cars and be unltra competitive. They are trying to make difficult for other companies to compete with them.
Look at the stock performance they need more sales.
Yes it is a great deal but it’s not a mistake. It’s a marketing strategy.

We are saying the same thing. They priced it below the threshold so it would be even lower with the tax credit. No doubt. It’s so low that it seems like a mistake (but it’s not).

[Humdizzle]

Watched the Carmudgeon podcast with Jason camisa. He gave a very good Hagerty review on the g80

But his new episode said the tesla 3 performance was the better sport sedan.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

Watched the Carmudgeon podcast with Jason camisa. He gave a very good Hagerty review on the g80

But his new podcast said the tesla 3 performance was the better sport sedan.

https://youtu.be/5xj0R4MyDhE?si=9PgOLRbobL2VfSqv

Funny, I watched this today. He was particularly ornery in this one and borderline depressed about “a weird time to be an automotive journalist” and “not a good time to be an enthusiast” due to boring vehicles and invasive privacy violations.

He harps that the “fake sports sedan” mantra is everywhere and implies the M3 is in this camp although it “has the moves to back it up” with such things as fake noise, rock hard seats…. in spite of nicer interior and outstanding chassis and drivetrain - equating the gen 2 model 3 performance driving dynamics as possibly better and that the M3 isn’t worth the price premium.

Look, imho, objectively there are 7 reasons the new Tesla 3 performance isn’t the best sports sedan, regardless of the specs and objective performance figures.

1) lack of a manual transmission and for both the manual and auto, no need for any real skill set or learning curve to drive fast (it is a sport, after all)

2) lack of luxuries - leather, bucket seats, carbon roof, CCB’s, etc.

3) a true sports sedan needs 3-4 hours of hard driving range through vast geographical areas or be able to do multiple laps on a track or even be an amateur race car without having to charge

4) lack of bespoke personalization and mods

5) lack of enthusiast community

6) build quality, relatively

7) passion, brand value, racing history, pedigree

I’m excited about the model 3 perf, but I’m not delusional to think it’s a better sports sedan than the M3.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Funny, I watched this today. He was particularly ornery in this one and borderline depressed about “a weird time to be an automotive journalist” and “not a good time to be an enthusiast” due to boring vehicles and invasive privacy violations.

He harps that the “fake sports sedan” mantra is everywhere and implies the M3 is in this camp although it “has the moves to back it up” with such things as fake noise, rock hard seats…. in spite of nicer interior and outstanding chassis and drivetrain - equating the gen 2 model 3 performance driving dynamics as possibly better and that the M3 isn’t worth the price premium.

Look, imho, objectively there are 7 reasons the new Tesla 3 performance isn’t the best sports sedan, regardless of the specs and objective performance figures.

1) lack of a manual transmission and for both the manual and auto, no need for any real skill set or learning curve to drive fast (it is a sport, after all)

2) lack of luxuries - leather, bucket seats, carbon roof, CCB’s, etc.

3) a true sports sedan needs 3-4 hours of hard driving range through vast geographical areas or be able to do multiple laps on a track or even be an amateur race car without having to charge

4) lack of bespoke personalization and mods

5) lack of enthusiast community

6) build quality, relatively

7) passion, brand value, racing history, pedigree

I’m excited about the model 3 perf, but I’m not delusional to think it’s a better sports sedan than the M3.

i agree. he's basically saying 'if it isn't a modern e90 m3 (manual, NA, lightweight, footprint of a civic) then you might as well get an EV for a sports sedan'. like there is no middle ground.

still "objectively" the model 3P continues to close the gap in terms of street performance, chassis, and suspension tuning. and it is wayyy cheaper than a g80cx. although depreciation might equal out the total cost of ownership for both.

[Limegrntaln]

It doesn’t matter to me I wouldn’t be using it as a track car. I’d just be using it to bolt around people and shoot the gaps, so, it doesn’t need to handle like it’s on rails. I just don’t need it getting sideways when I don’t want it to.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Funny, I watched this today. He was particularly ornery in this one and borderline depressed about “a weird time to be an automotive journalist” and “not a good time to be an enthusiast” due to boring vehicles and invasive privacy violations.

He harps that the “fake sports sedan” mantra is everywhere and implies the M3 is in this camp although it “has the moves to back it up” with such things as fake noise, rock hard seats…. in spite of nicer interior and outstanding chassis and drivetrain - equating the gen 2 model 3 performance driving dynamics as possibly better and that the M3 isn’t worth the price premium.

Look, imho, objectively there are 7 reasons the new Tesla 3 performance isn’t the best sports sedan, regardless of the specs and objective performance figures.

1) lack of a manual transmission and for both the manual and auto, no need for any real skill set or learning curve to drive fast (it is a sport, after all)

2) lack of luxuries - leather, bucket seats, carbon roof, CCB’s, etc.

3) a true sports sedan needs 3-4 hours of hard driving range through vast geographical areas or be able to do multiple laps on a track or even be an amateur race car without having to charge

4) lack of bespoke personalization and mods

5) lack of enthusiast community

6) build quality, relatively

7) passion, brand value, racing history, pedigree

I’m excited about the model 3 perf, but I’m not delusional to think it’s a better sports sedan than the M3.

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i agree. he's basically saying 'if it isn't a modern e90 m3 (manual, NA, lightweight, footprint of a civic) then you might as well get an EV for a sports sedan'. like there is no middle ground.

still "objectively" the model 3P continues to close the gap in terms of street performance, chassis, and suspension tuning. and it is wayyy cheaper than a g80cx. although depreciation might equal out the total cost of ownership for both.

Yeah, I listened to it too. You have to remember he is a pretty serious drama queen, but he does state his preferences.

He hates turbo cars and he doesn't quite loathe auto transmissions as much, but almost as much. For him, NA / MT is life and otherwise you might as well be driving an EV.

I do see his point. For his circumstance, single dude, no regular commute, living in a super crowded area, an EV is absolutely a better daily. I did that for 4 years in Houston. During that time I owned two different 911's as a weekend car (not at same time) and also had my wife's Cayenne. Rationally I should have stuck with this setup. It truly is the best of both worlds.

But....I'm not a multi-car kinda guy. I hated seeing the 911 just sitting there in the garage and especially after my kids got too big to sit in the back, meh, I didn't want to deal with it any more. The straw that broke the camel's back was my son turning 17 and driving so now that would mean we would need four cars, which meant his car would be outside. And two of those cars would be older Porsches. So I sold both and got the M3.

I don't understand him railing against the buckets (maybe he doesn't realize that you can just not order them?) and I do agree with the ASD being awful...but you can turn that off and it's so much better having done so. His point regarding the 3er being very isolated and //M having to inject some drama back into it rings true for me and while I don't agree that the E90 M3 should have been badged an M5, I DEFINITELY agree that the G80 is pretty much a 2020's M5.

But...that's not a bad thing, IMO. In fact, it's what lead me to buy it. Remember, this dude owns TWO E30's and a Sirocco, so consider the lens through which he views the automotive world. To him, an E90 is huge. To me, it was far too small to occupy the back seat with adults, lol.

I'm rambling. Point is...I see certain sides of his point. But if you take off your "Camissa glasses" in which the only good sports sedan is an NA MT or at the very least a super lightweight super raw and communicative one....you know, like a sports car, and you then look at the G80...it's still a hell of a car. But mostly, it has actual drama to it. Look, I really enjoyed my Model 3 in many ways. But inspiring it was not. At no time did I think...."let me take the long way home" in it. Now, as he says, maybe the new one does that? I doubt it. One pedal driving and no sound leaves the experience sterile. I won't say boring, but definitely not inspiring.

The M3 has it's flaws vs. the Model 3. But it also has it's charms.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

It doesn’t matter to me I wouldn’t be using it as a track car. I’d just be using it to bolt around people and shoot the gaps, so, it doesn’t need to handle like it’s on rails. I just don’t need it getting sideways when I don’t want it to.

The model 3 perf gen 1 was downright scary at times with its inferior chassis and suspension causing massive understeer and lack of stability.

Let’s see if they fixed this.

[bri1042]

That Carmuddgeon episode was Jason at his worst. Ranting on issues with the M3 that are options (the seats), barking his anger at the privacy issues that have come to light with a lot of manufacturers (Honda in this case), and giving Tesla a pass for every issue with the company and its products.

I enjoy Jason's perspective even when I don't agree with some of his points, but that one was a bit much. He went down such a ranting rabbit hole that he lost the plot entirely.

The Autotrader and Top Gear reviews were more informative about the actual product that Tesla has created. I absolutely want to test drive the new Model 3P when possible based on those two reviews.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

The model 3 perf gen 1 was downright scary at times with its inferior chassis and suspension causing massive understeer and lack of stability.

Let’s see if they fixed this.

Holy crap it was so bad. Riding on the bump stops like 75% of the time. Bounce bounce bounce. If anyone needs to understand how bad this was, watch this video and keep an eye on fixed horizontal objects like bridges and road signs:

And the worst part was the rear end. Man, if you loaded the car up in a corner and hit a mid corner bump, you got some serious old school 911 behavior from the rear end. Crap, it did some SCARY stuff and we're talking like .5 - .6 g of cornering load, nothing crazy.

[sikotic]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

We are saying the same thing. They priced it below the threshold so it would be even lower with the tax credit. No doubt. It’s so low that it seems like a mistake (but it’s not).

Looks like they made some great improvements this time around. It does seem very low though, which begs the question as to why. When a good car comes out, people will pay good money for it. But it seems that Tesla needs to bribe people into their cars with rebates and being "cheaper". I wonder why.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by sikotic

Looks like they made some great improvements this time around. It does seem very low though, which begs the question as to why. When a good car comes out, people will pay good money for it. But it seems that Tesla needs to bribe people into their cars with rebates and being "cheaper". I wonder why.

Good point. I read yesterday they are strategically doing these pricing drops to get better leverage on negotiations with their battery vendors. They are also getting more revenue from carbon credits as a result of market share. Third reason is their penetration of very profitable FSD sales.

[mirob]

I go to Cammisa for entertainment, not for unbiased reviews. The Revelations and Icons stuff he does on Hagerty's YT channel is superb.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by sikotic

Looks like they made some great improvements this time around. It does seem very low though, which begs the question as to why. When a good car comes out, people will pay good money for it. But it seems that Tesla needs to bribe people into their cars with rebates and being "cheaper". I wonder why.

VERY easy answer:

https://www.marketwatch.com/livecove...3V5BeUGnJ2KHGa

Tesla (because Elon) is ALL about the stock value. It's so overhyped and over discussed. So whenever there's bad news, Elon pulls "a lever". Usually in the from of discounts. Sometimes product. Etc.

They don't always need to do this and, in fact, for many years had a supply problem, not a sales problem. They still don't have a sales problem. But I LOL when I read that Tesla has a net earnings of $1.13B in Q1 and people are reporting it as "bad news". I was around when a good YEAR was not in the red. Not a Billion positive in one quarter.

How quickly people forget.

[Endless619]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Nice improvements indeed, but it's still a boring looking egg.

Exactly and at the end of the day it’s still a Tesla. Thats like trying to justify buying a Yugo or Hyundai in my book.

[vpegany]

Get the S if you want the looks. Just finished this one to go with my g83 & x5M

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Endless619

Exactly and at the end of the day it’s still a Tesla. Thats like trying to justify buying a Yugo or Hyundai in my book.

Your loss. Many attributes to driving a good one.

[Bimmerfun82]

This video summarizes what's out there so far concerning the new model 3 p. I completely disagree with the idea this trounces the M3. On the other hand agree with the comments about the i4.

https://youtu.be/_b2j2sEf6-M?si=JzLgTqVadYRSUaj1

[Bimmerfun82]

Update: I drove the model S and sat in the new model 3 LR. Didn’t like either of them. The performance seats must be better. Rethinking this. The S seats are just ok. The removal of stalks is a problem.

Drove the iXM60 and the i4M50. Both are outstanding. Not sure how fast they are but probably fast enough. Can feel the weight difference, although that contributes to the feeling of luxury. The i4 seems a bit smaller inside than the model 3.

Bought the iXM60 and canceled the model 3 perf order.