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      01-13-2022, 01:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Porsche really leads the industry when it comes to many of these things - electric steer, transmissions, e/LSD, rear axel steering, etc.
I don't agree though, as the Panamera, Macans, etc. all have very good steering feel that is much better than any competitor. A base Panamera 4 IMO has much better steering feel than my 2019 M5 Comp did, and a GTS another few notches above. Even my Macan GTS had better steering feel than my M5 or my G80 does. I hate to say it while the G80 is good, it's still not Porsche level by any stretch.
I agree, I was referring to Porsche's EPS steering outside the realm of 911/718 vs. BMW's hydraulic steering.
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      01-13-2022, 03:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by NightWriter View Post
I wouldn't worry too much about reconciling the demerits they reference about the Base versus the superlatives they are now heaping upon the X-Drive. Different days, different cars, different drivers, different roads. It's like how some reviewers have said that the 6MT is more engaging and fun, yet others have said the 8AT is better suited for this engine. Everyone's going to have their own opinion.

(Personally, I'm glad that Cadillac is making the Blackwings -- even if they're even harder to find than the G8X's -- since this is a rapidly dying market niche. I'm not looking forward to pissing contests about whose electric motor is quieter or whose batteries have better thermal management. I'm getting bored and sad just thinking about it.)

It will likely be more about which features the infotainment system has. New generations new priorities.
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      01-13-2022, 03:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
Porsche really leads the industry when it comes to many of these things - electric steer, transmissions, e/LSD, rear axel steering, etc.
I don't agree though, as the Panamera, Macans, etc. all have very good steering feel that is much better than any competitor. A base Panamera 4 IMO has much better steering feel than my 2019 M5 Comp did, and a GTS another few notches above. Even my Macan GTS had better steering feel than my M5 or my G80 does. I hate to say it while the G80 is good, it's still not Porsche level by any stretch.
Going from a 997 with hydraulic to the G80 was quite a shock. The thick steering wheel dulls the feel even more. Still way better than my old F30 though.

I test drove a Macan GTS and was impressed with its quick ratio and directness.
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      01-13-2022, 06:03 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by HNSKP View Post
Going from a 997 with hydraulic to the G80 was quite a shock. The thick steering wheel dulls the feel even more. Still way better than my old F30 though.

I test drove a Macan GTS and was impressed with its quick ratio and directness.
Exactly. While I know everyone loves the 'thick' bmw steering wheels (and they are nice!), this also exacerbates the lack of steering feel. Porsche again, gets the wheel thickness spot on. Not too thick, not too thin - just right. I have not had a BMW M car since 2016 when I sold my f82 M4. BMW makes a very good car, but owning both at the same time really solidifies why Porsches cost more. No detail, big or small, is left without massive consideration for how it is implemented and functions.
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      01-13-2022, 06:09 PM   #27
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Yeah the girthy ass steering wheel in these cars aren't good at all lol
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      01-13-2022, 11:18 PM   #28
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So much for that price difference….
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      01-14-2022, 06:24 AM   #29
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So much for that price difference….
Yeah, crazy market for sure.

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      01-14-2022, 06:51 AM   #30
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They are both great cars, I cross shopped both before getting my M4. It really comes down to personal preference.

Current wait for a CT4/5 BW order is about 8-10 months.

I'm a GM performance car fan (previously owned a manual CTS V Wagon, Camaro ZL1, a few other modified f-body's and a corvette in the past). I was very interested in the CT4 and CT5 BWs when they first launched.

Reason I went with the M4:

1 - Preferred the M4 exterior styling and aggressiveness. (especially in BSM) The CT5 V just looks awkward to me styling wise. The CT4 was better but was smaller and the engine is a bit of a let down
2 - Much prefer the S58 over the TT V6 in the BW. (More performance and tuning potential for when the warranty runs out)
3 - Interior fit and finish was nicer. (BW is still very good though). Infotainment also better in the M4
4 - Wheel options on the BMW are way better. Even the winter wheel setup from BMW looks amazing
5 - More comfortable seating and driving position

The plus side for the BW cars are that amazing TR6060 transmission. It's bulletproof and has incredible shift feel. The MagneRide suspension is also a plus for the BWs.

Both cars are incredible and were really were the only options available given I wanted a manual. (Carrera S was more than I was willing to spend)
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      01-15-2022, 01:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Porsche's EPS is definitely the closest feeling to hydraulic in the industry. I kind of agree with your last point, kind of don't. I really loved BMW's hydraulic steering, it was so so satisfying IMO. I think your point reigns true for Porsche's sports cars but debatable for the remainder of their portfolio.
Yeah, some manufacturers do a better job at simulating the hydraulic steering most are used to.

The hydraulic system is simulating the manual system on cars in the long gone past.

A lot has fallen between the cracks manual to hydraulic to electric.

My manual steering sport car feels nothing like my hydraulic or electric versions.

FWIW when the hydraulic systems first came in they were not all that well received by sports car people. Lots of road feel lost etc, sound familiar?

My own experiences started to change with my manual steering '67 StingRay had a shock absorber attached to the steering arms to reduce road induced vibrations.

Its been all downhill on road feel since then. So now you just have to drive within what the car gives you & not worry about what it does not.
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Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-15-2022 at 01:16 PM..
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      01-16-2022, 09:33 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by midlifecrisis View Post
I'm approaching 1,000 miles on my G80, and I'm thinking it's the best steering BMW since the E46. Light but precise, and it tracks down the road straight as an arrow. Very confident and comfortable cruiser. I think it's better than my E90 M3, as well as the two F22 2 Series we've owned. I think in terms of driving dynamics BMW has found its way again.
My E90 spoiled me and got me hooked on heavier and tighter steering. A family member's Macan S which I drive frequently reminds me of the E90's. But with my Alfa I've seen there is benefit to a lighter and quicker setup. I'm curious to see how I like the G80's, still have yet to drive it.
Yeah. I loved my E90 steering. Had 2 335's and a E92 M3. That M3 is still one of my favorite M3's and I have had every one since the E36.
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      01-16-2022, 01:21 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp View Post
Yeah. I loved my E90 steering. Had 2 335's and a E92 M3. That M3 is still one of my favorite M3's and I have had every one since the E36.
I’m in the same boat - still in my E90 335 and looking for something that offers at least a semblance of what I’m used to now for steering feel. What have you found as suitable alternatives? I haven’t driven a G80 so not sure how that compares at all or any of the competitors including a macan gts. Too hard to find any inventory around here at the moment.
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      01-16-2022, 02:38 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Former230 View Post
I’m in the same boat - still in my E90 335 and looking for something that offers at least a semblance of what I’m used to now for steering feel. What have you found as suitable alternatives? I haven’t driven a G80 so not sure how that compares at all or any of the competitors including a macan gts. Too hard to find any inventory around here at the moment.
Curious. I have had E, F & G series cars. 3 coupes 3 convertibles. Now down to two G's Z4 & M4C both convertibles.

Feel is pretty hard to define unless you can drive with the other person & switch seats to both have the same experience.

Can you take a shot & tell me what the difference is that you experience? What would you like to feel in the steering wheel?
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      01-16-2022, 05:26 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Curious. I have had E, F & G series cars. 3 coupes 3 convertibles. Now down to two G's Z4 & M4C both convertibles.

Feel is pretty hard to define unless you can drive with the other person & switch seats to both have the same experience.

Can you take a shot & tell me what the difference is that you experience? What would you like to feel in the steering wheel?
You may have intended this question for some of the others that have driven more of the modern competition, including the G80 itself, but I’ll do the best I can to interpret what I am defining it as - which I get, can be subjective from person to person.

In my E90, it’s nicely and seeming naturally weighted and doesn’t feel artificially weighted - I’ve driven some cars where there seems to be a forced electronic resistance to give the feeing of weight. More importantly though, I feel like I can really sense the footprint of what the front wheels/tires are doing. It sounds cliche but I feel like there is a communication there that lets my hands know the movement of the tires - bumps, sliding, resistance in a turn, even the nuances of going slow through a Parking lot where the surface varies and has no uniformity I can detect exactly when I go from asphalt to loose gravel or just cracks. It could just be it’s what I’m used to and again, I can see how this would be very subjective to my own interpretation.

To be clear, I’m by no means saying my car has the best steering, it’s more of just that I like it, I am used to it, and want to know what others who have had similar experiences/ thoughts would use as a good baseline for comparison so that I can include those cars in my shopping. Thanks all!
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      01-16-2022, 07:59 PM   #36
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No your post is just what I was looking for. I was not looking for mine is better than yours type thing just what you feel in the wheel.

Been reading about the vague numb steering charge against BMW even when they had hydraulics. Am looking for what that means as I find the car goes where I want it to go & think I am missing or not understanding something.

I had a chance in Raleigh to AutoX a G series M440 at a BMW event as part of its release marketing program. Thought it ran pretty good although it felt pretty big to me. Was a long tight course to keep the speeds down.

I like a medium to heavy weight in the wheel because my Cobra runs 275 NITTO NT-01's on the front with no power steering so its naturally to the heavy side when its in slower ranges especially on the street. I drive it as much as I can for the past 8 years so its something I am used to.

In SC with a M440 I believe I had a sense of what the front tires were doing, although some in my class did not. I found they gave a definite vibration in your hands through the steering wheel as they started to lose traction and slide to the outside into understeer. Was no I can feel a twig under the wheel thing but the warning was clearly there & you could use it to control the car.

Thanks for your comments
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      01-16-2022, 08:09 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyga11 View Post
"It's quite rough to look at"

Why does every magazine & lame YouTuber say the same exact thing? Oh, I know the answer. Group Think.

Everyone here is a VISIONARY. I guarantee you the average IQ for a G8X owner is over 120
It's interesting that now when I see the m3 and its competition side by side from the front, I find the others to be bland and dated.

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      01-17-2022, 08:23 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former230 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300zhp View Post
Yeah. I loved my E90 steering. Had 2 335's and a E92 M3. That M3 is still one of my favorite M3's and I have had every one since the E36.
I'm in the same boat - still in my E90 335 and looking for something that offers at least a semblance of what I'm used to now for steering feel. What have you found as suitable alternatives? I haven't driven a G80 so not sure how that compares at all or any of the competitors including a macan gts. Too hard to find any inventory around here at the moment.
As much as I hate to say it, nothing comes close to the E90 generation steering. The F80/82 M3/M4 were closer than the G80/82. The G chassis cars have significantly lighter steering than the F chassis cars, especially at low speed. I'm getting used to the G chassis steering, but did not like it at first. If you are looking for a 335/340, the F chassis steering is just ok and the M variant has much better steering weight and feel with adjustability that does not exist in the non-M cars. Hope this helps. FWIW, Porsche excels in the steering department and no one comes close.
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      01-17-2022, 01:16 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Forzanerazzurri View Post
It's interesting that now when I see the m3 and its competition side by side from the front, I find the others to be bland and dated.

The Wild Boar sure wins on the aggressive look front. Think people will just get used to it.

I buy what I like & really don't care what others think. Will admit I thought the look sucked till I saw one in person. Just fits what the car is very well.
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      01-23-2022, 09:53 PM   #40
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When you take a look inside, there is really no comparison… one of them looks like an economy class rental car and it’s not the BMW.
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      01-31-2022, 10:06 AM   #41
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You guys just kind of glossed over this paragraph in the article:

Quote:
With 473 horsepower and 406 lb-ft of torque spilling forth from its 3.0-liter turbocharged I-6, the standard M3 seems to be an even matchup for the Cadillac. Except when we drove the latest manual-equipped M4 (the two-door version of the M3) back to back with the CT4, it was no competition—the Caddy was just plain better to drive. More fun, more planted, and more capable, it made the M4 feel like a midgrade M440i.
Has anyone driven both the M3 and CT4 BW yet? I cant find either one locally. I think the M3 comp is an entirely different animal that outclasses the CT4 (at least in stock form), but the M3 6MT doesnt seem to get as much love in comparison. These two cars and maybe the golf R are on my shortlist.
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      01-31-2022, 12:17 PM   #42
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Quote:
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You guys just kind of glossed over this paragraph in the article:



Has anyone driven both the M3 and CT4 BW yet? I cant find either one locally. I think the M3 comp is an entirely different animal that outclasses the CT4 (at least in stock form), but the M3 6MT doesnt seem to get as much love in comparison. These two cars and maybe the golf R are on my shortlist.
Probably because it's information-free hyperbole. I don't really entirely blame the writer, most reviews generally fail to successfully translate "feel" into something you can actually put some stock into. Take two identical cars around a curve, but put a little more force into the throttle with one than the other and you can end up with a change in "feel". Get one driver who is better at recognizing good braking feel than the next driver and you can end up with different opinions on the brakes. Neither opinion changes the stopping distance, though.


Matt Farah once reviewed an M2C and came away unimpressed with the car entirely. There were two issues with his video. First, the orange M2C press car had been documented to have issues and it wasn't clear if it had been fixed for Matt. Second, he drove it IMMEDIATELY after driving a Lotus and complained about overall feel compared to the Lotus.

But, on this particular article...a "mid-grade M440i"? That's just exaggeration and not good journalism. Leaving out that the M3/440i are not anywhere near as competent (chassis-wise) as the M3/M4's are, there is no mid-grade of the M440i. It would have been a functional statement if he'd said "a M440i, which is just the mid-grade version of the 4-Series". Or something.

Anyway, hyperbole to mask personal preference isn't a review. It's an opinion. Accuracy left the building at that point. The CT4-V BW may be a better drivers' car, or it may not. Not enough people have done good enough on-the-same-day reviews. As driver's cars, I'd bet that any of us would be happy with either one and that the real difference between them is use-case and if you need to put anyone in the back seat regularly. And which nose you like better.
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      01-31-2022, 12:54 PM   #43
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Isn't that the exact same criteria they used to pick the winner though? Information free hyperbole? Im not in anyway bashing you, I agree 100% with your final paragraph about use-case and not having enough points of comparison.

Quote:
When it comes to picking the winner, ignoring everything but the way these vehicles make us feel when unleashed on our favorite roads, the BMW M3 Competition earns the victory. The Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing is a fantastic riding and handling car that's ultimately held back by an uninspiring engine and a general lack of fireworks. The M3 Competition, on the other hand, is everything we're going to miss about internal combustion—loud and unapologetic but also an absolute joy to drive. It's an engaging and organic powder keg and a return to form for BMW. Just a shame about that nose, no?
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      01-31-2022, 01:23 PM   #44
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Isn't that the exact same criteria they used to pick the winner though? Information free hyperbole? Im not in anyway bashing you, I agree 100% with your final paragraph about use-case and not having enough points of comparison.
Yep, Pretty much it is the same criteria that reviews have injected since time began. Some subjectivity is going to creep in...no way to do it other than to run tests, post numbers, and just declare the winner based on the objective numbers. We all know that cars aren't just the numbers they produce on a skidpad, so that wouldn't work, either. Reviewers don't have the easiest job. When they're doing their jobs right, the readers understand the context of their subjective statements. When they aren't, they present their subjective judgements as objective fact.

As readers of reviews, we need to hold them to some standards, I think. This wasn't WELL DONE hyperbole is my main issue with it. :-)

...I like my hyperbole well done, not pink in the middle...
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