[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

FWIW, I think the CSL will have a disadvantage; CUP2R. If they tested it in the dry, I'd rank it 2nd or 3rd, in the wet; 5 at best

1. Audi R8
2. McLaren Artura
3. GR86
4. GT4 RS
5. M4CSL
6. 296 GTB
7. Mercedes SL
8. Maserati

Ooh - interesting choice - no chance R8 wins that group (as Scully says). And Artura could well be a dark horse (currently an unknown quantity). They'll use the same press car as before for the M4 CSL, which means MPS4S and non-buckets, so sub-optimal set-up, which means iffy reviews.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Ooh - interesting choice - no chance R8 wins that group (as Scully says). And Artura could well be a dark horse (currently an unknown quantity). They'll use the same press car as before for the M4 CSL, which means MPS4S and non-buckets, so sub-optimal set-up, which means iffy reviews.

Did you notice, I'm not that fond of Italian cars? 🤣

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Did you notice, I'm not that fond of Italian cars? ��

Haha - sensible!!! But the 296 has had amazing reviews, I think it'll do pretty well. If I was placing them, the order would be very different though!

ETA - more similar to you

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Haha - sensible!!! But the 296 has had amazing reviews, I think it'll do pretty well. If I was placing them, the order would be very different though!

The reviews are great, granted, but wait until it breaks down ten minutes after break-in service

[Hit_Apex]

I'm betting on the GT4RS. Putting in the GT3 engine was a bold move, the type journalists like to reward.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Ooh - interesting choice - no chance R8 wins that group (as Scully says). And Artura could well be a dark horse (currently an unknown quantity). They'll use the same press car as before for the M4 CSL, which means MPS4S and non-buckets, so sub-optimal set-up, which means iffy reviews.

The messy Artura press launch is well documented, which affected initial reviews, but recent comparisons of the more polished car have been very positive. I wouldn't be surprised if the Artura finishes very high in this group test.

BMW didn't learn its lesson from the botched M3 GTS press tour (where they had multiple cars with different suspension configurations, and they used them on mismatched surfaces, ie road suspension configured car on track and vice versa). They either are giving the car with Cup2Rs and a BMW engineer with tire warmers, or PS4s, instead of putting the car on a jack of all trade tire, like a Cup2 Connect or PZero Corsa.

But Porsche screwed this up too, when they gave Evo a GT3 touring on Cup2s and the suspension in track setting for a road-only group test. Since that failed win, customers are getting their Touring's delivered with PZero Corsas and a suspension adjusted to road setting by default. Harry Metcalfe mentioned that in his recent touring review, that later deliveries now have a suspension by default configured differently than the winged cars.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

I'm betting on the GT4RS. Putting in the GT3 engine was a bold move, the type journalists like to reward.

The only reason i'm betting against it, is that Jethro Bovington and John Barker (presumably both at ECoty) did a group test of the GT4 RS, Ferrari Speciale, NSX-R and STO earlier in the year.

They put the GT4 RS decidedly 4th, and said the noise detracted from the experience of the car eventually. The also said the PDK was less of a fit for the car then the DCT was for the 458 or STO. The 458 Speciale easily won that test. A few other reviewers are saying similar things now, and i'm also seeing GT4 RS ADMs start to fall while GT3 ADMs stay strong.

If Steve Sutcliffe is at ECoty, he will absolutely have the GT4 RS ranked 1st.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

The reviews are great, granted, but wait until it breaks down ten minutes after break-in service

Tell me about it - had a couple of Alfa's back in the day. Lots to like but my god were they unreliable! (And pretty much permanently needed a service).

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

The only reason i'm betting against it, is that Jethro Bovington and John Barker (presumably both at ECoty) did a group test of the GT4 RS, Ferrari Speciale, NSX-R and STO earlier in the year.

They put the GT4 RS decidedly 4th, and said the noise detracted from the experience of the car eventually. The also said the PDK was less of a fit for the car then the DCT was for the 458 or STO. The 458 Speciale easily won that test. A few other reviewers are saying similar things now, and i'm also seeing GT4 RS ADMs start to fall while GT3 ADMs stay strong.

If Steve Sutcliffe is at ECoty, he will absolutely have the GT4 RS ranked 1st.

Exactly the same reason I didn't have it higher - that review was hardly glowing. I'm not so sure about Sutters, he does love the GT4RS but he also loves the GR86 - the review in the latest EVO is just incredible. He placed it ahead of both the MX-5 and the Alpine (and he really loves that Alpine). The problem for the GT4 RS as a road car is that it's apparently VERY loud, like annoyingly so, which means that as a road car it's going to get on your nerves eventually - everything else about it is sensational apparently. The kind of car that when you're "on it" is superb but that might be difficult to enjoy when you aren't. For me, the Nissan GTR was like that, the kind of car that you have to drive around like you're on fire. At anything even approaching normal speed, it's just a nightmare! Terrible comfort, understeery, ridiculous diff noises, recalcitrant DCT. Just crap below about 50MPH - above that though? What an incredible machine!

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Exactly the same reason I didn't have it higher - that review was hardly glowing. I'm not so sure about Sutters, he does love the GT4RS but he also loves the GR86 - the review in the latest EVO is just incredible. He placed it ahead of both the MX-5 and the Alpine (and he really loves that Alpine). The problem for the GT4 RS as a road car is that it's apparently VERY loud, like annoyingly so, which means that as a road car it's going to get on your nerves eventually - everything else about it is sensational apparently. The kind of car that when you're "on it" is superb but that might be difficult to enjoy when you aren't. For me, the Nissan GTR was like that, the kind of car that you have to drive around like you're on fire. At anything even approaching normal speed, it's just a nightmare! Terrible comfort, understeery, ridiculous diff noises, recalcitrant DCT. Just crap below about 50MPH - above that though? What an incredible machine!

I rest my case

This is how I see the industrious motoring world:

Germans —> they engineer cars to death, but can't design great looking cars

Italians —> they make pretty gorgeous cars which when they work, they do amazingly well; for an entire five minutes - in other words, engineering lacks depth

Americans —> they make bricks fly - in one direction only - quality of finish? Pass

Japanese —> they make the impossible possible but usually far too busy with gimmicks, much like a Christmas tree

French —> well, there's wine

British —> they make motoring romantic by sheer elegance - Aston Martin, Lotus, McLaren, Triumph, MG, Mini Cooper ....... even when they fail, they win

For the record, I'm from none of these countries

[PLF69]

Like always the Ferrari will be the most emotional product and McLaren the most effective. I'd say the 286GTB stands a bit more chance of being on top.

The GT4RS doesn't seem that "fun" it as the cool factor and all but seems like a less polished product vs a GT3 but still stands a chance since it's the only Porsche in the group.

I think the CSL stands a better chance than we think, it's a full ICE motorization, it can be civilized, emotional and exciting. If it could be add with a manual tranny I'd say its chances would be 2x.

Doesn't the GR86 have engine problems when driven on track ?

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Exactly the same reason I didn't have it higher - that review was hardly glowing. I'm not so sure about Sutters, he does love the GT4RS but he also loves the GR86 - the review in the latest EVO is just incredible. He placed it ahead of both the MX-5 and the Alpine (and he really loves that Alpine). The problem for the GT4 RS as a road car is that it's apparently VERY loud, like annoyingly so, which means that as a road car it's going to get on your nerves eventually - everything else about it is sensational apparently. The kind of car that when you're "on it" is superb but that might be difficult to enjoy when you aren't. For me, the Nissan GTR was like that, the kind of car that you have to drive around like you're on fire. At anything even approaching normal speed, it's just a nightmare! Terrible comfort, understeery, ridiculous diff noises, recalcitrant DCT. Just crap below about 50MPH - above that though? What an incredible machine!

Yeah I think my hesistancy on paying a $60k premium on a GT4 RS is that, I may not like it within a few months. The spyder RS is different, I think that will be a great car.

Also the GT4 RS is a harsh car. It's a great car for journalists to take on a few hour road test and rave about. A completely different thing to live with, even on the weekends on a road.

The GR86 is an all time great I think and a car I may buy next.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Like always the Ferrari will be the most emotional product and McLaren the most effective. I'd say the 286GTB stands a bit more chance of being on top.

The GT4RS doesn't seem that "fun" it as the cool factor and all but seems like a less polished product vs a GT3 but still stands a chance since it's the only Porsche in the group.

I think the CSL stands a better chance than we think, it's a full ICE motorization, it can be civilized, emotional and exciting. If it could be add with a manual tranny I'd say its chances would 2x.

Doesn't the GR86 have engine problems when driven on track ?

The CSL isn't winning ECoty, got a 4 star review, and it's going to be on PS4s.

But as an ownership proposition, the CSL is very good. Which is why I think values will be strong on it for a while and that was what BMW was shooting for.

I think there is some division on whether the M5 CS would beat the CSL in a 1 on 1 group test on driving experience alone.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I rest my case

This is how I see the industrious motoring world:

Germans —> they engineer cars to death, but can't design great looking cars

Italians —> they make pretty gorgeous cars which when they work, they do amazingly well; for an entire five minutes - in other words, engineering lacks depth

Americans —> they make bricks fly - in one direction only - quality of finish? Pass

Japanese —> they make the impossible possible but usually far too busy with gimmicks, much like a Christmas tree

French —> well, there's wine

British —> they make motoring romantic by sheer elegance - Aston Martin, Lotus, McLaren, Triumph, MG, Mini Cooper ....... even when they fail, they win

For the record, I'm from none of these countries

I'm keeping this post for posterity! Absolute gold dust!

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Like always the Ferrari will be the most emotional product and McLaren the most effective. I'd say the 286GTB stands a bit more chance of being on top.

The GT4RS doesn't seem that "fun" it as the cool factor and all but seems like a less polished product vs a GT3 but still stands a chance since it's the only Porsche in the group.

I think the CSL stands a better chance than we think, it's a full ICE motorization, it can be civilized, emotional and exciting. If it could be add with a manual tranny I'd say its chances would 2x.

Doesn't the GR86 have engine problems when driven on track ?

CSL is never doing well in that test. I'd love to be wrong about this but I don't see it. They've rated loads of other cars in this test higher. Anything above 5th would be astounding given their previous statements and the fact that it's going to be in the completely wrong spec.

But the rest? Who knows?

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Yeah I think my hesistancy on paying a $60k premium on a GT4 RS is that, I may not like it within a few months. The spyder RS is different, I think that will be a great car.

Also the GT4 RS is a harsh car. It's a great car for journalists to take on a few hour road test and rave about. A completely different thing to live with, even on the weekends on a road.

The GR86 is an all time great I think and a car I may buy next.

I have a GR86 coming next year (I'm one of the people that got an order in within 90mins if you follow the UK press).

I'll try and keep it.

[Gunnerforlife]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Exactly the same reason I didn't have it higher - that review was hardly glowing. I'm not so sure about Sutters, he does love the GT4RS but he also loves the GR86 - the review in the latest EVO is just incredible. He placed it ahead of both the MX-5 and the Alpine (and he really loves that Alpine). The problem for the GT4 RS as a road car is that it's apparently VERY loud, like annoyingly so, which means that as a road car it's going to get on your nerves eventually - everything else about it is sensational apparently. The kind of car that when you're "on it" is superb but that might be difficult to enjoy when you aren't. For me, the Nissan GTR was like that, the kind of car that you have to drive around like you're on fire. At anything even approaching normal speed, it's just a nightmare! Terrible comfort, understeery, ridiculous diff noises, recalcitrant DCT. Just crap below about 50MPH - above that though? What an incredible machine!

I don't see the GT4 RS winning. ECOTY tend to rate cars that do well on the road in different conditions. As good as the GT4 RS, it's not a car that you can just grab the key to go run an errand. It's loud and harsh and it seems that it needs the driver to be in a certain mood to enjoy it. I'm betting on the GR86 or the 296 GTB to win it.

[gnx]

My take:


1. 296 GTB
2. GT4 RS
3. McLaren Artura
4. R8 RWD
5. GR 86
6. M4 CSL
7. MC20
8. SL55

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

I have a GR86 coming next year (I'm one of the people that got an order in within 90mins if you follow the UK press).

I'll try and keep it.

In the UK, a GR86 allocation is like a prize cause they are already all snatched up. Here in the US, i can just go down to the local toyota dealership and buy one off the lot today if i want (they want a small ADM of like $2k).

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by gnx

My take:


1. 296 GTB
2. GT4 RS
3. McLaren Artura
4. R8 RWD
5. GR 86
6. M4 CSL
7. MC20
8. SL55

I'm loving this these differences in opinion - I think the one thing we all seem to agree on is that the Merc isn't going to do very well. And I'll be stunned if the R8 does that well, I think it's just too old and not quite special enough. The rest though? who knows?

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

I'm loving this these differences in opinion - I think the one thing we all seem to agree on is that the Merc isn't going to do very well. And I'll be stunned if the R8 does that well, I think it's just too old and not quite special enough. The rest though? who knows?

The merc review that came from ECoty got posted on the website and it's not good. It's definitely coming in last.

I could see the CSL anywhere from 7th to 3rd. But I think either 5th or 6th is the most likely. I think in a group test with other cars, as opposed to a review where it gets compared to either an e46 CSL or an M2 CS and M5 CS, will produce a different result.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

In the UK, a GR86 allocation is like a prize cause they are already all snatched up. Here in the US, i can just go down to the local toyota dealership and buy one off the lot today if i want (they want a small ADM of like $2k).

Yeah - UK market only got 430, the car costs £30k. Its a front-engined RWD, naturally aspirated, manual car with decent turn of pace - everybody is going to want one.

In the UK, they have just confirmed that the Honda Civic Type R is going to cost £50k, so the GR 86 is looking like an epic bargain - the opportunity to make money on the GR86 is definitely there in the UK. But I reckon, I'm going to keep the CSL and (eventually) profit from the GR86. But you never know.