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      10-07-2020, 03:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
A stock power GT4 with an alignment and RE-71's can do a 2:10 at WGI. These are regular guy drivers, not pros. A mildly modded GT4 can do 2:07, regular DE driver. What I assume is a more significantly modded GT4 can do a 2:04, video doesn't list the mods. All videos on Youtube.

I'm sure you could of easily done better than a 2:10 given your skills, but you can't expect to do that in a couple of laps. Get out in one again for more time and you may change your mind. I've only had the GT4 out for one track day so far and it took at least a couple of sessions to get a feel for the cars balance. It has very different behavior to the M2/3. The long second gear is noticeable on the street but felt fine on the track to me, tracks with a lot of low speed corners may be different. I actually found the lack of midrange torque way more noticeable than the gearing, it feels a bit flat below 5K RPM. I've probably been spoiled by the S55 in that regard
Having traded the F82 in for a GT4, agreed on the flat below 5k RPM. I don't track it, but even so the long gearing doesn't bother me all that much. Its just a shitload of fun to drive as a DD. Do I think my old M4 Comp was faster? Yep. Was it as much fun to DD? Nope. If I had to pick between the two as my track car, I'd take the M4 with cash reserve for possible crank hub. Probably still comes out cheaper than modding the Porsche. Then again, my ded track car is a C5Z, so what do I know
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      10-08-2020, 08:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
A stock power GT4 with an alignment and RE-71's can do a 2:10 at WGI. These are regular guy drivers, not pros. A mildly modded GT4 can do 2:07, regular DE driver. What I assume is a more significantly modded GT4 can do a 2:04, video doesn't list the mods. All videos on Youtube.

I'm sure you could of easily done better than a 2:10 given your skills, but you can't expect to do that in a couple of laps. Get out in one again for more time and you may change your mind. I've only had the GT4 out for one track day so far and it took at least a couple of sessions to get a feel for the cars balance. It has very different behavior to the M2/3. The long second gear is noticeable on the street but felt fine on the track to me, tracks with a lot of low speed corners may be different. I actually found the lack of midrange torque way more noticeable than the gearing, it feels a bit flat below 5K RPM. I've probably been spoiled by the S55 in that regard
The CS did a 2:06 in its first outing at the track with RE71s. One would hope that a purpose built sports car like the GT4 that comes from the factory with aero and a coilover suspension would be at least as fast as a sedan.

I look forward to the day someone tries to convince me about the speed of Porsches with what they have achieved. Not 'someone's youtube video' or 'my friend'.

It isn't like I've driven two laps in a Porsche one time in my life and have made conclusions based on that. I've driven plenty. The nicest was definitely a 991.2 6MT GT3

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 10-08-2020 at 08:33 AM..
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      10-08-2020, 01:20 PM   #25
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The CS did a 2:06 in its first outing at the track with RE71s. One would hope that a purpose built sports car like the GT4 that comes from the factory with aero and a coilover suspension would be at least as fast as a sedan.

I look forward to the day someone tries to convince me about the speed of Porsches with what they have achieved. Not 'someone's youtube video' or 'my friend'.

It isn't like I've driven two laps in a Porsche one time in my life and have made conclusions based on that. I've driven plenty. The nicest was definitely a 991.2 6MT GT3
A $75k C7 z06 will decimate either cars lap time, it has a John Deere tractor chassis, leaf springs and a pushrod V8 from a pickup truck
(no offense to Vette owners they are clearly awesome bits of kit)
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      10-08-2020, 08:33 PM   #26
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A $75k C7 z06 will decimate either cars lap time, it has a John Deere tractor chassis, leaf springs and a pushrod V8 from a pickup truck
(no offense to Vette owners they are clearly awesome bits of kit)
No offense taken.
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      10-08-2020, 08:46 PM   #27
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BMW... Porsche... Corvette... 95% of these cars will never be within miles of a track of any kind, well maybe a rail crossing.
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      10-17-2020, 09:55 AM   #28
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I have a GT4 on order and I have no doubt it will be a better sports car than my M3 for both the street and the track. But there's no way the Porsche will be more comfortable to drive than my CS-swapped '15 F80. I've driven several 911's and caymans and they are all much less smooth and more road-following on uneven pavement and have significantly more road noise. My F80 is an excellent track car, fun as hell on the street, and capable of 10hr road trips without fatigue. The G8X will be perfectly fine for track use out of the box, and even better over time with the software updates that BMW will inevitably release.

In fact, I'm not convinced I'll like the GT4 better for most of my usage, which tends to be errand running and 3-5hr afternoon cruises with the wife.
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      10-17-2020, 10:10 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
When discussing cars and track worthiness, people tend to gravitate towards Ring times and excel sheet comparisons as well as pro driver reviews. This is, in my opinion, a mistake. The question isn't whether Randy Pobst is able to drive a specific car (GT4 or GT3 for example) faster than another car (M3 CS for example). Randy is a professional race driver. His experiences do not easily translate to joe six pack.

I consider myself a pretty accomplished track driver. 3 years of wheel to wheel in American Endurance Racing with trophies to back that up (sharing a seat with Randy), hundreds of track days, PCA instructor. yada yada yada. The GT4 I sampled was a full build: aeromotion extended aero and JRZ 3WR suspension set up at their shop, 450hp power package, etc. Gearing is all messed up on that car, it's crazy to have 2nd gear get to 83mph, it means in a slow enough turn you should be putting 1st in. Anyway, once you get some speed and it begins rotating it wants to continue rotating until it spins, basically the opposite behavior of a front engine/rear drive car. I managed a few 2:10 laps at WGI (a far cry from 2:04 in the CS or E90 with no aero and weighing 600lb more...) until third gear 'broke'. I brought it in and apparently 3rd gear is a known issue and covered under warranty, but I've tracked 180k mile E46s which still were on their original tranny and clutch. The GT4 has autorevmatch so it's not like there was a missed shift.

A few years later I had a track weekend with a buddy who raced Cup cars and currently drives a 991 GT3 RS that is modded to the moon and back. During the weekend there was someone else in a GT4 that was funny because they started getting ready to go out, I'd start getting ready as well and then the guy would stop and go sit down so we wouldn't coincide on track. I reminded my buddy that I had never seen a fast GT4 on track and he got upset like if I was insulting his mother or something. Anyway, later that weekend he had a chance to drive my car, did a few laps, came back in and said 'you were right, the GT4 is not even close'.
A stock power GT4 with an alignment and RE-71's can do a 2:10 at WGI. These are regular guy drivers, not pros. A mildly modded GT4 can do 2:07, regular DE driver. What I assume is a more significantly modded GT4 can do a 2:04, video doesn't list the mods. All videos on Youtube.

I'm sure you could of easily done better than a 2:10 given your skills, but you can't expect to do that in a couple of laps. Get out in one again for more time and you may change your mind. I've only had the GT4 out for one track day so far and it took at least a couple of sessions to get a feel for the cars balance. It has very different behavior to the M2/3. The long second gear is noticeable on the street but felt fine on the track to me, tracks with a lot of low speed corners may be different. I actually found the lack of midrange torque way more noticeable than the gearing, it feels a bit flat below 5K RPM. I've probably been spoiled by the S55 in that regard
Just to clarify, are you referring to the 981 GT4 here or the 718?
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      10-17-2020, 05:20 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
Just to clarify, are you referring to the 981 GT4 here or the 718?
I'd take a G82 comp over a 982 GT4 but NOT over a 718 GT4 for the track.

edit: 981

Last edited by Avaley; 10-23-2020 at 09:11 PM..
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      10-23-2020, 09:38 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
I'd take a G82 comp over a 982 GT4 but NOT over a 718 GT4 for the track.
982 and 718 GT4 are the same car

I just got my first GT car in a 718 GT4 and I track a few times a year. Went to an event at NYST and my times were significantly faster than guys in M3/4 CS that were there and were also modded. I was in a stock alignment GT4 and was many seconds faster. And that was me running intermediate vs the most experienced group. And I’m sure with a more experienced driver or me with more time and also an actual alignment there is a lot more in the car.
The GT3s that were there were the fastest cars of the day by far.
My experience is that if driven well (Same skill levels) the Porsches are not only the fastest but also most consistent.
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      10-23-2020, 09:50 PM   #32
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i seriously considered the new 718 GTS 4.0 in my due diligence process .. and honestly if i wasn't leasing, getting the cayman is no brainer. It and maybe the C8 vette are leagues of their own in terms of driving dynamics this side of 100k usd or cad.. not to mention these Porsches hold value so well in Canada.

too bad lease numbers look horrible for essentially the same MSRP as M4 (if I go for a "poverty" spec Cayman GTS ), not to mention the rather dated interior and tech.
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      10-24-2020, 09:34 AM   #33
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i seriously considered the new 718 GTS 4.0 in my due diligence process .. and honestly if i wasn't leasing, getting the cayman is no brainer. It and maybe the C8 vette are leagues of their own in terms of driving dynamics this side of 100k usd or cad.. not to mention these Porsches hold value so well in Canada.

too bad lease numbers look horrible for essentially the same MSRP as M4 (if I go for a "poverty" spec Cayman GTS ), not to mention the rather dated interior and tech.
If you want a lease you feel good about in terms of payment vs MSRP Porsche is not the way to do it. They hit you hard with money factor at many times prime...but more people buy them vs lease.
The GTS is a nice car and can’t go wrong with that option but I don’t think they’re much cheaper once you add options. Either way, I’m loving my GT4 even though I don’t drive it a ton. Was going to do another track day at NJMP in November but opted out given weather will likely be too cold so will wait for spring.
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      10-24-2020, 02:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by DecemberStorm View Post
i seriously considered the new 718 GTS 4.0 in my due diligence process .. and honestly if i wasn't leasing, getting the cayman is no brainer. It and maybe the C8 vette are leagues of their own in terms of driving dynamics this side of 100k usd or cad.. not to mention these Porsches hold value so well in Canada.

too bad lease numbers look horrible for essentially the same MSRP as M4 (if I go for a "poverty" spec Cayman GTS ), not to mention the rather dated interior and tech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelToeShift View Post
If you want a lease you feel good about in terms of payment vs MSRP Porsche is not the way to do it. They hit you hard with money factor at many times prime...but more people buy them vs lease.
The GTS is a nice car and can’t go wrong with that option but I don’t think they’re much cheaper once you add options. Either way, I’m loving my GT4 even though I don’t drive it a ton. Was going to do another track day at NJMP in November but opted out given weather will likely be too cold so will wait for spring.

I did some quick math a while ago on depreciation of a GTS 4.0 and GT4 when I was making this decision to finance, given the lower residual on the GTS, it actually did not make sense to finance a GTS.

GT cars just hold their value better and 105k for a non GT car cayman was hard to justify for me as that is getting into poverty Carrera territory. This may change when more GTS 4.0s hit lots and dealers are aggressive on pricing.

If the GTS 4.0 with options was ~85k I would have bought it on the spot.
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      10-24-2020, 05:34 PM   #35
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I did some quick math a while ago on depreciation of a GTS 4.0 and GT4 when I was making this decision to finance, given the lower residual on the GTS, it actually did not make sense to finance a GTS.

GT cars just hold their value better and 105k for a non GT car cayman was hard to justify for me as that is getting into poverty Carrera territory. This may change when more GTS 4.0s hit lots and dealers are aggressive on pricing.

If the GTS 4.0 with options was ~85k I would have bought it on the spot.
yea for sure the price delta between the GTS 4.0 and GT4 / Spyder is not that substantial. and it's not like dealers are aggressively discounting the GTS 4.0 at this stage either
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      10-26-2020, 11:22 AM   #36
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yea for sure the price delta between the GTS 4.0 and GT4 / Spyder is not that substantial. and it's not like dealers are aggressively discounting the GTS 4.0 at this stage either
I personally think the GT4 and Spyder styling is worth the price alone as it’s just so aggressive and for me easily one of the best looking mid-engined designs today or from a historical perspective.
I think the GTS cars look great but much more under stated in looks. They are going to be very rare (is what I am hearing) and should also hold value well so I presume discounts will be far and few between.

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      10-26-2020, 03:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecemberStorm View Post
yea for sure the price delta between the GTS 4.0 and GT4 / Spyder is not that substantial. and it's not like dealers are aggressively discounting the GTS 4.0 at this stage either
I personally think the GT4 and Spyder styling is worth the price alone as it’s just so aggressive and for me easily one of the best looking mid-engined designs today or from a historical perspective.
I think the GTS cars look great but much more under stated in looks. They are going to be very rare (is what I am hearing) and should also hold value well so I presume discounts will be far and few between.
I agree. I'm usually a function over form guy but the GT4 is one of the beat looking cars on the road today IMO. Even though the GTS fits my use case better (only 1-2 track days a year), the styling was a big factor pushing me towards the GT4. I figure owing a manual, N/A GT car is an experience I want to have in my life before they cease to exist, even if I eventually find the car too harsh for daily use or longer drives.

The GT4 looks like a special car. The GTS looks like every other Porsche you ever see.
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      10-27-2020, 05:47 AM   #38
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As much as I hate the recent transition of M cars appealing to soccer moms and stoplight racers who can't drive a RWD without traction control or bother to learn how to properly drive a DCT, credit should be given where it deserves.

Prolonged track driving will tell you that:
1. M engines are much more reliable and less costly to run than Porsche F6 engines. Up to 991 engines all Flat-6 engines other than GT variants suffered from oil starvation destroying cylinder walls because of their design.
Flat engines just cannot handle high lateral G without dry sump system. M engines from E36 M3 3.2 Euro all have dual oil pickup which supplies oil in high lateral G conditions at all times.

2. Weight is a big problem, but weight distribution matters as well. The famous 50&50 weight distribution of M cars does not just mean front and rear, it also means left to right. This enables drivers to chase higher cornering speed (i.e. higher entry speed) than 40-60~ 30-70 weight distribution of 911s. Where 911s shine is actually straight line speed from the corner exit. 911 Non GT variants understeer going at same entry speed as F8x M3/4s so driving 911 is not a pleasant experience for track rats looking for a neutral balance.

3. Nurburgring times don't mean shit as track conditions differ and car setup is drastically different to get the maximum result out of a particular track. Just because 911s are more nurburgring focused does not mean it fares well on other tracks. M cars are consistently fast on all tracks.
Contrary to what BMW would want us to beleive, a 50-50 weight distribution is far from ideal. It is a question of physics and polar moment of inertia. The farther the center of gravity is form the rear axle of the car, the greater the force needed to get the the car to change direction. There's a reason why all great handling cars as well as race cars have a rear weight bias.

From my recent experience of driving a base 992 C4 on track, I can attest that it changes direction with much more conviction than any of my ///Ms (E46/E92/F82/F82cs).

Further, looking at the G8X stats, it seems like it is carrying a fair bit of weight on its front axle, much more so than the F8X (~200lb of the 300 extra lbs are on the front axle). The AWD version will be even worse. No wonder they had to widen the front tires and track so much. The front axle on the G8X will have to work quite hard indeed.
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      10-27-2020, 05:52 AM   #39
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I guess it really depends on what balance you are looking for in a car.

I have driven 718 Cayman S hard on tight roads and I did not like the handling characteristics on non air suspension to the point that I would never trade my E92 M3 for one. Transmission(PDK) is amazing but suspension is strangely harsh at low speed yet too wobbly at high lateral G situations. Given, E92 M3 V8 is virtually a front-midship layout as opposed to inline 6s that hang out over the front struts (a more conventional front engine layout) and sits lower to the ground being crossplane V8 so it naturally has better balance than what is offered now.

You say supercars don't have FR layout but F12 Berlinetta disagrees, so does every Aston Martin/Mercedes/Corvette up to the current generation. Supercars with over 600 bhp use midship layout because it provides them best rear traction off the get go and provide that exclusivity, less about racing pedigree. Yes, as bhp gets higher it is more logical to use mid engine layout but neither Ms nor 911s are at that level yet.

I should also mention that early midship layouts such as Lamborghini diablo and many 911s up to 997s suffered from nose lifting at high speeds and subsequent instability due to lighter front. It is not a stable design from the get go. Also the reason why 992s moved towards more midship layout vs. RR to provide more neutral balance.
Most of the car you mention have front-mid engine layouts (engine cg behind the front axle, which the E9X does not have BTW) with rear transaxles to shift that weight to the rear .
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      10-27-2020, 05:59 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montaver View Post
A stock power GT4 with an alignment and RE-71's can do a 2:10 at WGI. These are regular guy drivers, not pros. A mildly modded GT4 can do 2:07, regular DE driver. What I assume is a more significantly modded GT4 can do a 2:04, video doesn't list the mods. All videos on Youtube.

I'm sure you could of easily done better than a 2:10 given your skills, but you can't expect to do that in a couple of laps. Get out in one again for more time and you may change your mind. I've only had the GT4 out for one track day so far and it took at least a couple of sessions to get a feel for the cars balance. It has very different behavior to the M2/3. The long second gear is noticeable on the street but felt fine on the track to me, tracks with a lot of low speed corners may be different. I actually found the lack of midrange torque way more noticeable than the gearing, it feels a bit flat below 5K RPM. I've probably been spoiled by the S55 in that regard
Mu buddy did a 2:04 at WGI in a stock 781 GT4 with Hoosiers and pads. What I find amazing is that these GT cars can handle very sticky tires on their stock suspension and brakes, which cannot be said of the M3/4 in general.

That being said, I've loved every ///M car I've owned thus far. Nothing beats their combination of practicality and track capability.
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      11-25-2020, 04:30 PM   #41
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Is there anything about the seat design that would preclude a harness being attached to them? Something like a Schroth QFP. The standard seat doesn't appear to have a gap at the headrest area so looks like any type of harness wouldn't be possible.
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