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      10-19-2020, 08:41 AM   #67
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Its always nice to listen to Chris, even I disagree strongly on 1M being more exciting than M3 E92. Driven both cars numerous times, I would choose the E92 over 1M every day.
The problem I've always had with these reviews is that they always want to tell you how fun on a car is on a back road or at that track, but that's missing half the point.

The 1M is worse in every regard when compared to the M2. You cannot say the same about the E92 over the F80.

That engine was the last special motor they made, and the chassis it was tied to was no slouch. It was also much more comfortable than the 1M, and better looking. And on the track, you really had to drive the E9X. it took a lot of driving to make it go fast, but that's what made it so much fun.
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Its always nice to listen to Chris, even I disagree strongly on 1M being more exciting than M3 E92. Driven both cars numerous times, I would choose the E92 over 1M every day.
His is tuned so a torque monster and he likes a ragged edge. I agree S65 is way more my thing vs N54 in any state of tune.
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Its always nice to listen to Chris, even I disagree strongly on 1M being more exciting than M3 E92. Driven both cars numerous times, I would choose the E92 over 1M every day.
The problem I've always had with these reviews is that they always want to tell you how fun on a car is on a back road or at that track, but that's missing half the point.

The 1M is worse in every regard when compared to the M2. You cannot say the same about the E92 over the F80.

That engine was the last special motor they made, and the chassis it was tied to was no slouch. It was also much more comfortable than the 1M, and better looking. And on the track, you really had to drive the E9X. it took a lot of driving to make it go fast, but that's what made it so much fun.
Spoken like E92 or M2 owners who didn't get lucky enough to score a 1M. Approximately 1/100 reviewers agree with your opinion.

I agree that the S65 is better than an N54, but the 1M is way better than the sum of its parts. Looks are subjective, but very few cars a as comical/concept car looking than a 1M with its giant wheels and fender flares which pictures don't do it justice.

Ironically the F8X and M2 are BMW's attempts to mix the 1M DNA with the E9X DNA. While the F8X is a great car (I have one), the result is more of an E39 M5 vs a traditional M3.
That's not true at all. I'm an original E92 M3 owner, bought in 2010, and I had the option to purchase the 1M instead. But It's a parts bin car.

Regardless, the M2 is better than the 1M. Literally, it does everything better.

People spend gazillions on a used 1M as oppose to buying an M2. To each their own.
Weird because 1M has soul and M2 is a rebadged M235i .
Please explain that. The 1M uses the chassis parts of an E92. The M2 uses chassis parts from an F80.

The 1M has an N54. The M2 has an N55, and then even better, an S55.

Aside from hydraulic steering on the 1M, I see the same cars, with the M2 using improved parts.
Sure, the M235i was the original top trim for the 2 series which is an economy car at its core. Aka, steel everywhere, aka heavy.

In order to satisfy the M fans they came up with the M235i and took a 235i and gave it an M treatment but, you know, not really. But it got proprietary suspension.

The M2 is actuslly the same as the M235i except for the pistons and 2 suspension pieces which are aluminum on the M2 to lighten up the front of the car.

And the DCT.

But the DcT ages bad, the ZF8 never dies.

But an M3 is like 80% different than a 3 series. An M2? Badge engineering. More saying how good the M235i is really. Just get that.
That's...not true at all. Especially if you take an M2 comp with its S55.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/6-k...-m2-and-m240i/
Yeah he's full of it. I had to laugh at his post.
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      10-19-2020, 01:37 PM   #68
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I have an advantage that I get to drive all these different cars every day.

The 1M feels special. The E90 M3 feels special. The F series M cars, while having great numbers, do not feel special. They are completely lacking in character, too rough, too twitchy, no feedback. The new G series cars are leaps and bounds better. They really feel like a modern interpretation of the older E series cars. They feel planted, solid. You can feel them take a set in the corner and grip. I would happily take a new 340 over any F M car. Don't talk to me about stats, go and drive one. I feel the current M2 is better in this regard, but still not as good as the 1M. The next gen M2 is the car I am anxiously awaiting. That may be the best drivers car BMW has made in a long time, or ever again.

If they do these new M cars right, they are going to be phenomenal. Too bad about the face.
Hey, you mentioned the E90 M3 being a good car. What is your opinion on the E92 M3? I was thinking of getting one again and doing a clubsport kinda build.
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      10-19-2020, 05:07 PM   #69
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Its always nice to listen to Chris, even I disagree strongly on 1M being more exciting than M3 E92. Driven both cars numerous times, I would choose the E92 over 1M every day.
The problem I've always had with these reviews is that they always want to tell you how fun on a car is on a back road or at that track, but that's missing half the point.

The 1M is worse in every regard when compared to the M2. You cannot say the same about the E92 over the F80.

That engine was the last special motor they made, and the chassis it was tied to was no slouch. It was also much more comfortable than the 1M, and better looking. And on the track, you really had to drive the E9X. it took a lot of driving to make it go fast, but that's what made it so much fun.
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Originally Posted by Puuhapete View Post
Its always nice to listen to Chris, even I disagree strongly on 1M being more exciting than M3 E92. Driven both cars numerous times, I would choose the E92 over 1M every day.
His is tuned so a torque monster and he likes a ragged edge. I agree S65 is way more my thing vs N54 in any state of tune.
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Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars View Post
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Originally Posted by Puuhapete View Post
Its always nice to listen to Chris, even I disagree strongly on 1M being more exciting than M3 E92. Driven both cars numerous times, I would choose the E92 over 1M every day.
The problem I've always had with these reviews is that they always want to tell you how fun on a car is on a back road or at that track, but that's missing half the point.

The 1M is worse in every regard when compared to the M2. You cannot say the same about the E92 over the F80.

That engine was the last special motor they made, and the chassis it was tied to was no slouch. It was also much more comfortable than the 1M, and better looking. And on the track, you really had to drive the E9X. it took a lot of driving to make it go fast, but that's what made it so much fun.
Spoken like E92 or M2 owners who didn't get lucky enough to score a 1M. Approximately 1/100 reviewers agree with your opinion.

I agree that the S65 is better than an N54, but the 1M is way better than the sum of its parts. Looks are subjective, but very few cars a as comical/concept car looking than a 1M with its giant wheels and fender flares which pictures don't do it justice.

Ironically the F8X and M2 are BMW's attempts to mix the 1M DNA with the E9X DNA. While the F8X is a great car (I have one), the result is more of an E39 M5 vs a traditional M3.
That's not true at all. I'm an original E92 M3 owner, bought in 2010, and I had the option to purchase the 1M instead. But It's a parts bin car.

Regardless, the M2 is better than the 1M. Literally, it does everything better.

People spend gazillions on a used 1M as oppose to buying an M2. To each their own.
Weird because 1M has soul and M2 is a rebadged M235i .
Please explain that. The 1M uses the chassis parts of an E92. The M2 uses chassis parts from an F80.

The 1M has an N54. The M2 has an N55, and then even better, an S55.

Aside from hydraulic steering on the 1M, I see the same cars, with the M2 using improved parts.
Sure, the M235i was the original top trim for the 2 series which is an economy car at its core. Aka, steel everywhere, aka heavy.

In order to satisfy the M fans they came up with the M235i and took a 235i and gave it an M treatment but, you know, not really. But it got proprietary suspension.

The M2 is actuslly the same as the M235i except for the pistons and 2 suspension pieces which are aluminum on the M2 to lighten up the front of the car.

And the DCT.

But the DcT ages bad, the ZF8 never dies.

But an M3 is like 80% different than a 3 series. An M2? Badge engineering. More saying how good the M235i is really. Just get that.
That's...not true at all. Especially if you take an M2 comp with its S55.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/6-k...-m2-and-m240i/
We were talking about the M2 not the M2 comp.
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      10-19-2020, 09:58 PM   #70
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1M is awesome, if it is not your thing then fine, but it is so rare to have a modern car shorter than cars from 20-30 years ago. Just the size alone makes it special IMO, not to mention hydraulic steering with modern EPS type of ratios.

This opinion is not new for Harris. He penned this love letter in January.
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      10-20-2020, 05:39 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
I have an advantage that I get to drive all these different cars every day.

The 1M feels special. The E90 M3 feels special. The F series M cars, while having great numbers, do not feel special. They are completely lacking in character, too rough, too twitchy, no feedback. The new G series cars are leaps and bounds better. They really feel like a modern interpretation of the older E series cars. They feel planted, solid. You can feel them take a set in the corner and grip. I would happily take a new 340 over any F M car. Don't talk to me about stats, go and drive one. I feel the current M2 is better in this regard, but still not as good as the 1M. The next gen M2 is the car I am anxiously awaiting. That may be the best drivers car BMW has made in a long time, or ever again.

If they do these new M cars right, they are going to be phenomenal. Too bad about the face.
What kind of driving? No disrespect, but I used to be a valet in my younger years and I got to drive a lot of "special" cars. I couldn't say it gave me an accurate representation of each car in their elements: at the limit. How does one define "special" anyway? Because I've driven an E30, E36 and a E43. I've tracked both an E90 and my F80's and while they both feel different, I wouldn't say that the E90 was more "special" than the F80. In fact, I'm almost every single category of driving dynamics beside the sound, the F80 pretty much w blew the E90 out of the water. I would say there was slightly
more steering feedback, but honestly it was a fractional difference... it's not like comparing my mom's downright disconnected '85 Buick to a manual steering E30. It's not like the F80 steering feels like your playing Outrun at the local arcade. No one is going to suddenly vomit when they turn the wheel or turn into shit drivers by the numbness. It's like a 15% improvement in steering feel is going to undo a boat load of power and torque in a lighter car that handles, brakes, and accelerates better? I find that hard to believe.
Just curious, have you driven a new G20?
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      10-20-2020, 06:12 AM   #72
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What kind of driving? No disrespect, but I used to be a valet in my younger years and I got to drive a lot of "special" cars. I couldn't say it gave me an accurate representation of each car in their elements: at the limit. How does one define "special" anyway? Because I've driven an E30, E36 and a E43. I've tracked both an E90 and my F80's and while they both feel different, I wouldn't say that the E90 was more "special" than the F80. In fact, I'm almost every single category of driving dynamics beside the sound, the F80 pretty much w blew the E90 out of the water. I would say there was slightly
more steering feedback, but honestly it was a fractional difference... it's not like comparing my mom's downright disconnected '85 Buick to a manual steering E30. It's not like the F80 steering feels like your playing Outrun at the local arcade. No one is going to suddenly vomit when they turn the wheel or turn into shit drivers by the numbness. It's like a 15% improvement in steering feel is going to undo a boat load of power and torque in a lighter car that handles, brakes, and accelerates better? I find that hard to believe.
You may want to get the blood flow in your arms checked if you cant feel the steering difference between an F8x and an E9x.
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      10-20-2020, 12:02 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
What kind of driving? No disrespect, but I used to be a valet in my younger years and I got to drive a lot of "special" cars. I couldn't say it gave me an accurate representation of each car in their elements: at the limit. How does one define "special" anyway? Because I've driven an E30, E36 and a E43. I've tracked both an E90 and my F80's and while they both feel different, I wouldn't say that the E90 was more "special" than the F80. In fact, I'm almost every single category of driving dynamics beside the sound, the F80 pretty much w blew the E90 out of the water. I would say there was slightly
more steering feedback, but honestly it was a fractional difference... it's not like comparing my mom's downright disconnected '85 Buick to a manual steering E30. It's not like the F80 steering feels like your playing Outrun at the local arcade. No one is going to suddenly vomit when they turn the wheel or turn into shit drivers by the numbness. It's like a 15% improvement in steering feel is going to undo a boat load of power and torque in a lighter car that handles, brakes, and accelerates better? I find that hard to believe.
You may want to get the blood flow in your arms checked if you cant feel the steering difference between an F8x and an E9x.
I can feel it, it's just not going to make me a horrible driver.
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      10-20-2020, 12:05 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
I have an advantage that I get to drive all these different cars every day.

The 1M feels special. The E90 M3 feels special. The F series M cars, while having great numbers, do not feel special. They are completely lacking in character, too rough, too twitchy, no feedback. The new G series cars are leaps and bounds better. They really feel like a modern interpretation of the older E series cars. They feel planted, solid. You can feel them take a set in the corner and grip. I would happily take a new 340 over any F M car. Don't talk to me about stats, go and drive one. I feel the current M2 is better in this regard, but still not as good as the 1M. The next gen M2 is the car I am anxiously awaiting. That may be the best drivers car BMW has made in a long time, or ever again.

If they do these new M cars right, they are going to be phenomenal. Too bad about the face.
What kind of driving? No disrespect, but I used to be a valet in my younger years and I got to drive a lot of "special" cars. I couldn't say it gave me an accurate representation of each car in their elements: at the limit. How does one define "special" anyway? Because I've driven an E30, E36 and a E43. I've tracked both an E90 and my F80's and while they both feel different, I wouldn't say that the E90 was more "special" than the F80. In fact, I'm almost every single category of driving dynamics beside the sound, the F80 pretty much w blew the E90 out of the water. I would say there was slightly
more steering feedback, but honestly it was a fractional difference... it's not like comparing my mom's downright disconnected '85 Buick to a manual steering E30. It's not like the F80 steering feels like your playing Outrun at the local arcade. No one is going to suddenly vomit when they turn the wheel or turn into shit drivers by the numbness. It's like a 15% improvement in steering feel is going to undo a boat load of power and torque in a lighter car that handles, brakes, and accelerates better? I find that hard to believe.
Just curious, have you driven a new G20?
Yes. Too heavy.
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      10-22-2020, 12:06 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
I have an advantage that I get to drive all these different cars every day.

The 1M feels special. The E90 M3 feels special. The F series M cars, while having great numbers, do not feel special. They are completely lacking in character, too rough, too twitchy, no feedback. The new G series cars are leaps and bounds better. They really feel like a modern interpretation of the older E series cars. They feel planted, solid. You can feel them take a set in the corner and grip. I would happily take a new 340 over any F M car. Don't talk to me about stats, go and drive one. I feel the current M2 is better in this regard, but still not as good as the 1M. The next gen M2 is the car I am anxiously awaiting. That may be the best drivers car BMW has made in a long time, or ever again.

If they do these new M cars right, they are going to be phenomenal. Too bad about the face.
What kind of driving? No disrespect, but I used to be a valet in my younger years and I got to drive a lot of "special" cars. I couldn't say it gave me an accurate representation of each car in their elements: at the limit. How does one define "special" anyway? Because I've driven an E30, E36 and a E43. I've tracked both an E90 and my F80's and while they both feel different, I wouldn't say that the E90 was more "special" than the F80. In fact, I'm almost every single category of driving dynamics beside the sound, the F80 pretty much w blew the E90 out of the water. I would say there was slightly
more steering feedback, but honestly it was a fractional difference... it's not like comparing my mom's downright disconnected '85 Buick to a manual steering E30. It's not like the F80 steering feels like your playing Outrun at the local arcade. No one is going to suddenly vomit when they turn the wheel or turn into shit drivers by the numbness. It's like a 15% improvement in steering feel is going to undo a boat load of power and torque in a lighter car that handles, brakes, and accelerates better? I find that hard to believe.
Just curious, have you driven a new G20?
Yes. Too heavy.
Interesting. If you compare identically optioned G vs F chassis cars, the new G series are slightly lighter. They do come with more standard equipment though, so can not get a complete stripper model like on the F series cars.
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      10-22-2020, 12:31 PM   #76
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Interesting. If you compare identically optioned G vs F chassis cars, the new G series are slightly lighter. They do come with more standard equipment though, so can not get a complete stripper model like on the F series cars.
I think the entire lineup of 3 series from both the G and the F are too heavy, I wasn't comparing them directly.

Regardless, I'm not 100% sure you are right that the G are generally lighter though:


F30 340i: 1605 Kg *
G20 M340i: 1758 kg **

F80 M4: DIN/EU - 1497/1572kg ***
G80 M4: DIN/EU - 1700/1775kg ***

* - google search
** - BMW consumer website
*** - BMW Press Group Specifications Sheets
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      10-22-2020, 12:53 PM   #77
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Interesting. If you compare identically optioned G vs F chassis cars, the new G series are slightly lighter. They do come with more standard equipment though, so can not get a complete stripper model like on the F series cars.
I think the entire lineup of 3 series from both the G and the F are too heavy, I wasn't comparing them directly.

Regardless, I'm not 100% sure you are right that the G are generally lighter though:


F30 340i: 1605 Kg *
G20 M340i: 1758 kg **

F80 M4: DIN/EU - 1497/1572kg ***
G80 M4: DIN/EU - 1700/1775kg ***

[SIZE="1"]* - google search
** - BMW consumer website
*** - BMW Press Group Specifications Sheets[/SIZE]
Well both of those comparisons are kinda comparing apples to oranges because both the G cars are AWD. Sad that that is how you have to take them though. This is also why I feel the real drivers car to get will be the G series M2. Smaller, lighter, same basic engine as the G80, RWD and a real manual!! If it feels as good as the G20 does, it will be a real winner. Going to be a hard decision between that and the Cayman GTS.
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      10-22-2020, 01:19 PM   #78
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Well both of those comparisons are kinda comparing apples to oranges because both the G cars are AWD.
All these are the RWD models. The AWD G20 and G8X are much heavier. G8X M4 is the 6MT RWD, the lightest spec G80 you can get at launch. X-Drive specs aren't released yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Sad that that is how you have to take them though. This is also why I feel the real drivers car to get will be the G series M2. Smaller, lighter, same basic engine as the G80, RWD and a real manual!! If it feels as good as the G20 does, it will be a real winner. Going to be a hard decision between that and the Cayman GTS.
I hope they don't make the new M2 that much bigger or heavier. It was already practically the same as the F8X. For me, the 718 GTS 4.0 is looking pretty damn good
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      10-22-2020, 01:54 PM   #79
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Well both of those comparisons are kinda comparing apples to oranges because both the G cars are AWD.
All these are the RWD models. The AWD G20 and G8X are much heavier. G8X M4 is the 6MT RWD, the lightest spec G80 you can get at launch. X-Drive specs aren't released yet.

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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Sad that that is how you have to take them though. This is also why I feel the real drivers car to get will be the G series M2. Smaller, lighter, same basic engine as the G80, RWD and a real manual!! If it feels as good as the G20 does, it will be a real winner. Going to be a hard decision between that and the Cayman GTS.
I hope they don't make the new M2 that much bigger or heavier. It was already practically the same as the F8X. For me, the 718 GTS 4.0 is looking pretty damn good
Agreed!!
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