[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

I understand how awd and fwd works and how much grip a front steer tire can handle between steering and driving. As I said already I know an awd car can accelerate faster after exiting a corner then a rwd car. Someone on here said safety for family is why they bought an xdrive and all I said was braking and cornering have nothing to do with awd safety and neither does hydroplaning.

Also a Porsche gt2 rs has a better track time than a 911 turbo s but the 911 turbo s has a better 0-60

Same with a gt3 rs and a 911 turbo the gt3 Beats the 911 on the track but not in a straight line

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

I just commented to someone on Porsche the gt3 rs out performs a 911 turbo s on the track in every aspect same with the gt2 rs and the 911 turbo s but the 911 turbo straight line acceleration beats both that's awd against rwd

Put the same tires on the turbo and it beats the GT3 around a track And yes, you can ask me how I know

GT2RS is on another level due to its massive power-to-weight advantage.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Sorry to nitpick, but that is not quite correct. Even rear biased AWD will induce on-power understeer. My wife's previous S4 had a fixed 40-60 front-rear torque split and still plowed under power. To be able to alleviate that trait, an AWD system needs to be able to completely decouple the front axle, which the G8X and 992 can do.

Ask me how I know! I just got the car back from the shop from overshooting a turn! So even the G80's ability to go full to the rears isn't 100% going to alleviate understeer.

Yes, I was very much oversimplifying it for the sake of making a point, as I stated in one of my other posts somewhere here.

[BLKSAPPE92]

Originally Posted by jmg

You specifically said:

I merely pointed out that what you noticed was from front biased AWD systems. A rear biased AWD system acts very differently and does not understeer in the same way that a FWD or front biased AWD system does.

You can hydroplane or lose grip in any combination of wheels out of 4:
1/4
2/4
3/4 or
4/4 wheels can lose grip.

In an AWD vehicle, you can potentially lose grip in 3 wheels and maintain mobility. On a RWD you can only manage to lose grip in 2 before you lose mobility. So the AWD vehicle is potentially safer than a RWD vehicle in those particular cases.

I'm not sure what you are implying here. Is it that that a AWD Turbo is slower on the track than a GT3RS and GT2 because its AWD? That's simply not the case. The Turbo is close to 500 lbs heavier than both those other cars for one. That's not the only difference.

I e never said that awd cars aren't fun or fast in a straight line as I said before it doesn't necessarily make them safer

What does accelerating and drive tires have to do with hydroplaning?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

I e never said that awd cars aren't fun or fast in a straight line as I said before it doesn't necessarily make them safer

What does accelerating and drive tires have to do with hydroplaning?

I don't think "fun" was a factor in this discussion.

If you are sliding, accelerating can change your trajectory to avoid a collision. It can also help you get unstuck.

[BLKSAPPE92]

Originally Posted by jmg

I don't think "fun" was a factor in this discussion.

If you are sliding, accelerating can change your trajectory to avoid a collision. It can also help you get unstuck.

Again awd doesn't have any safety factors
You don't make any sudden braking or acceleration when you hydroplane so awd is of no factor.

Snow and ice is the same thing you don't make any sudden changes if loser of traction braking or acceleration so again awd has nothing to do with safety.

Yes it will help you accelerate faster in less than optimal conditions but you still can't stop or change directions any better than a rwd car

I don't understand why I have to keep repeating that

I'm not speaking about anything like stuck in your driveway or at a stop sign in heavy snow because that would go back to what I said yes they can accelerate but the two things people try to associate with awd is safety like braking and maneuverability (not takin off fast from a stop) in rain or snow and ice and it just doesn't apply

Now besides the great fun accelerating factor
Front Axles always prematurely wear out due to turning and flexing the xdrive system is clutch based so they need to be serviced every 30k and tires left to right have to be exact so if you just by two tires and some how get a nail or cut and only have 2-3/32nds of wear you need another tire on a rwd car that's not the case because it will cause wear on the clutch system that is used to transfer power

[jmg]

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

Again awd doesn't have any safety factors
You don't make any sudden braking or acceleration when you hydroplane so awd is of no factor.

• AWD can help prevent 4 wheel hydroplaning in the first place
  
• Hydroplaning was only ONE example I used. Water, mud, dirt... all things that AWD vehicles are safer in

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

Snow and ice is the same thing you don't make any sudden changes if loser of traction braking or acceleration so again awd has nothing to do with safety.

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

I'm not speaking about anything like stuck in your driveway or at a stop sign in heavy snow because that would go back to what I said yes they can accelerate but the two things people try to associate with awd is safety like braking and maneuverability (not takin off fast from a stop) in rain or snow and ice and it just doesn't apply

I didn't say sudden changes. I said change trajectory.

Being able to correct an oversteer situation is the same on wet, ice, and dry. If the two tires have lost traction, the front tires can pull you out. On the track, it's about exit speed, but in a situation like snow and rain etc, it's about correcting oversteer and regaining control of the trajectory of the car. Straight is safer than sideways. Maybe someone else is better at explaining this than I am.

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

Yes it will help you accelerate faster in less than optimal conditions but you still can't stop or change directions any better than a rwd car

I don't understand why I have to keep repeating that

I don't know why you keep repeating it either, since I talked about this in my very first reply to you and everyone else seems to agree that this has been thoroughly addressed and resolved:

Originally Posted by jmg

Its true that AWD does not improve braking or increase grip in the dry or wet when there is no grip to begin with (ie al tires are hydroplaning)

It does, however offer more "grip" in the sense that the system will send power to the wheel with grip. So in a RWD LSD equipped vehicle compared to a AWD vehicle, the RWD has 2 available options for grip, while the AWD has 4. For instance, if both rear wheels on a RWD have lost grip, the RWD car is out of options for power delivery. An AWD car that has no traction in the rear wheels, still has 2 front wheels it can deliver power to.

So wet, dry, or icy, grip is dynamic and changing, based on the road conditions, and weight distribution of the car over all 4 wheels. In a corner, for example, the weight goes to the front of the car during braking, as the car apexes and the brakes are gradually released, the throttle is applied, the weight starts to transfer to the rear. Too much power, and the rear wheels brake traction and you have a potential oversteer situation. Too little power and the exit speed isn't as fast as it could be.

When tracking a RWD vehicle, I try to get the car pointing down the road as much as possible to accelerate as fast as possible without losing control of the vehicle. When I feel the rears losing grip and start to step out, I dial in some counter-steer, and feather the throttle to reel in the rear. This costs fractions of a second, which is what we are fighting for on the track.

With AWD, we can get on the throttle a little bit sooner because the system is making dozens if not hundreds of decisions a second to send power to the wheels with the most grip, so when the rear tires start to loose grip from too much power, some of that power is sent to the front to both tame the car, and still maintain forward acceleration. This saves fractions of a second, which, again, is what we are fighting for on the track. Also, it is confidence inspiring, which also could lead to faster times.

So you gain traction from the apex to corner-exit, but not necessarily corner entry nor pre-apex.

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

Now besides the great fun accelerating factor
Front Axles always prematurely wear out due to turning and flexing the xdrive system is clutch based so they need to be serviced every 30k and tires left to right have to be exact so if you just by two tires and some how get a nail or cut and only have 2-3/32nds of wear you need another tire on a rwd car that's not the case because it will cause wear on the clutch system that is used to transfer power

It's very difficult to read this because of the lack of punctuation. However, as someone who has owned many AWD vehicles, I know the trade-offs. It sounds like you have some weird prejudice against AWD and are just trying to find all the reasons to hate it. That's fine, you do you, but don't justify your opinion with facts that are incomplete or incorrect.

[astroricardo]

How about 'because we can'

[BLKSAPPE92]

Originally Posted by jmg

• When 3 tires are hydroplaning, and a 4th tire can control motion, then AWD can be safer.
  
• AWD can prevent 4 wheel hydroplaning
  
• Hydroplaning was only ONE example I used. Water, mud, dirt... all things that AWD vehicles are safer in

Why do they allow AWD vehicles to drive with chains in the trunk rather than chains on the tires?

I didn't say sudden changes. I said change trajectory. If your rear tires are on ice, and the front are not, the AWD is going to get you moving.

I don't know why you keep repeating it either, since I talked about this in my very first reply to you and everyone else seems to agree that this has been thoroughly addressed and resolved:

For the 2nd time, being able to correct an oversteer situation is the same on wet, ice, and dry. If the two tires have lost traction, the front tires can pull you out. On the track, it's about exit speed, but in a situation like snow and rain etc, it's about correcting oversteer and regaining control of the trajectory of the car. Straight is safer than sideways. Maybe someone else is better at explaining this than I am.

It's very difficult to read this because of the lack of punctuation. However, as someone who has owned many AWD vehicles, I know the trade-offs. It sounds like you have some weird prejudice against AWD and are just trying to find all the reasons to hate it. That's fine, you do you, but don't justify your opinion with facts that are incomplete or incorrect.

I have lived in Maine and Michigan most of my life. I'm very familiar with how awd works in rain snow and ice and what it doesn't do for you in those situations. So I've owned them my entire life and have driven them in all situations for months at a time during different season.

I'm still lost because if a vehicle hydroplanes you do not brake or accelerate so drive wheels do not come into play. They way you're explaining it to me when you hydroplane you accelerate and steer to use that awd setup

[jmg]

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

I have lived in Maine and Michigan most of my life. I'm very familiar with how awd works in rain snow and ice and what it doesn't do for you in those situations. So I've owned them my entire life and have driven them in all situations for months at a time during different season.

I'll continue to grab the keys of my AWD cars when we're going to the snow, thanks.

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

I'm still lost because if a vehicle hydroplanes you do not brake or accelerate so drive wheels do not come into play. They way you're explaining it to me when you hydroplane you accelerate and steer to use that awd setup

Like I said earlier, it's not going to help in that very instance when all 4 wheels have lost grip, but the levels of grip are ever changing depending on the weight distribution, thickness of the snow, presence of ice etc.

You don't hydroplane forever into infinity, your tires find grip eventually right?

An AWD system is making dozens if not hundreds of decisions a second to manage that grip and send power to the correct wheels etc. so even while hydroplaning, and one or more of your tires hit a patch that it can grip to, then AWD can help if it's to wheels that you wouldn't be able to send power to in a 2WD vehicle. Those are the instances where a 2WD vehicle would continue to lose control, while an AWD vehicle can regain control, whether it be to get out from being stuck, sliding sideways, sliding backwards, forwards etc.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by jmg

I'll continue to grab the keys of my AWD cars when we're going to the snow, thanks.




Like I said earlier, it's not going to help in that very instance when all 4 wheels have lost grip, but the levels of grip are ever changing depending on the weight distribution, thickness of the snow, presence of ice etc.

You don't hydroplane forever into infinity, your tires find grip eventually right?

An AWD system is making dozens if not hundreds of decisions a second to manage that grip and send power to the correct wheels etc. so even while hydroplaning, and one or more of your tires hit a patch that it can grip to, then AWD can help if it's to wheels that you wouldn't be able to send power to in a 2WD vehicle. Those are the instances where a 2WD vehicle would continue to lose control, while an AWD vehicle can regain control, whether it be to get out from being stuck, sliding sideways, sliding backwards, forwards etc.

If you keep making sense --- you rep total will just grow and grow sir



LOL.

[BLKSAPPE92]

Originally Posted by jmg

I'll continue to grab the keys of my AWD cars when we're going to the snow, thanks.

Like I said earlier, it's not going to help in that very instance when all 4 wheels have lost grip, but the levels of grip are ever changing depending on the weight distribution, thickness of the snow, presence of ice etc.

You don't hydroplane forever into infinity, your tires find grip eventually right?

An AWD system is making dozens if not hundreds of decisions a second to manage that grip and send power to the correct wheels etc. so even while hydroplaning, and one or more of your tires hit a patch that it can grip to, then AWD can help if it's to wheels that you wouldn't be able to send power to in a 2WD vehicle. Those are the instances where a 2WD vehicle would continue to lose control, while an AWD vehicle can regain control, whether it be to get out from being stuck, sliding sideways, sliding backwards, forwards etc.

They eventually make grip again after hydroplaning and it's because of the contact patch on the tires not because it's awd.


And again I never said awd wasn't better for snow obviously it helps you gain traction to get around. I said it does nothing for safety in terms of braking or evasive maneuvering.

Again I'm referring to safety like braking and evasive maneuvering not how awd makes it easier for you to pull off from a stop in inclement weather.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

They eventually make grip again after hydroplaning and it's because of the contact patch on the tires not because it's awd.

If the tire with grip is a driven wheel, of course AWD is going to help, because that wheel can help correct the trajectory of the car.

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

I said it does nothing for safety in terms of braking or evasive maneuvering.

Yes, it does, for all the reasons I have already listed.

Originally Posted by BLKSAPPE92

Again I'm referring to safety like braking and evasive maneuvering not how awd makes it easier for you to pull off from a stop in inclement weather.

Again, I'm not talking about braking, I don't know why you keep bringing it up, as if it's new info that contradicts anything I have said.

Besides evasive maneuvering, AWD helps when the vehicle is oversteering/understeering/sliding be it on wet, snow, ice, and dry. What I don't think I'm explaining correctly is that power to the wheels isn't just about acceleration, it's about changing trajectory. TRAJECTORY. If I'm sideways on the ice/wet/dry because the rear tires have lost grip, power to the front wheels can pull the car out of a slide.

So, if I'm about to slide sideways in the snow into a school bus of kids, AWD can catch the slide by powering the front wheels and claw itself out of the slide by sensing and shifting the grip levels in all four wheels. What I mean by catching the slide is that the car will get out of oversteer, and all 4 wheels can be pointed in the right direction and move itself out of the path that leads it into the school bus of kids. I'm really bad at explaining this, but there really is nothing more I can say to try to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced.

[kiw1]

Because I live in Mammoth and got 3ft of snow last week I'd rather have RWD and winter tires any day of the week, but AWD plus winter tires are just better for day to day driving in snow and ice. In warmer conditions the AWD system is king

[NorCalAthlete]

Originally Posted by amuk

Honestly, imo the only reason to not get the AWD is if you want the manual.

If electing for the Comp models, regardless of where you live and the weather conditions, to me it doesn't make sense to not get the AWD unless:
1) You really need to save a couple grand even though you're already buying a vehicle well over 70k
Or
2) You need the car now and a dealer/seller has a RWD available. You can't wait for an AWD

Agreed. And why I got the comp xdrive

Originally Posted by Limegrntaln

If that's the case, it's worth it to hold out for an xDrive just for the resale value alone.

I do anticipate this will hold its value better than others, but the manual cars may end up winning out in the end due to fewer numbers. We'll see.

Originally Posted by RockinPA

The answer is simple.

X-drive gives you both awd AND rwd. The weight increase is negligible. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't check the box for x-drive…

I love warming up the car in 4WD sport and then flipping the car into rwd at the touch of a button. Winning.

Shameless photo attached because every post should include a photo. 😅

This also crossed my mind when deciding. Being able to hoon around in RWD mode and then throwing it back into AWD for daily duty is great.

[SpeedyG]

I like rear wheel drive for predictability on handling and I love AWD for rainy weather driving. I only started sliding one time in nine and a half years in my Audi S4 driving around a 360 loop freeway exit. Thank goodness for Michelin Pilot Sport 4s on recovery and quattro systems handling( I must have hit an oil patch on the wet road). Sure my tuned RS5 will beat my M3 in a straight line but that M3 has the advantage on over all handling even though it is rear wheel drive. I can't floor the M3 in the rain but that's okay