[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Scorp!on

I've read now quiet a few posts from you and no offense to you but some points i'd like to say.

- We get it, you hate the new M3/M4.
- You don't miss a chance on any thread to speak bad about that generation but you didn't even set a feet in that car
- BMW is going new ways. So what? It's their philosophy, like it or not! I appreciate their courage to go complete new ways regarding the design! compared with porsche or audi which look since 50 yrs the same!
- you wan't a daily driver and track ability? you get it with the M3/M4, at least regarding the numbers! you have absoloutely no idea what the engineers thought when creating the cars and i'm pretty damn sure they know much more about how to build a car than you.
it's heavier, so what? are you hunting lap times? are you running a Championship with your car? or do you just want to have fun with it?
who tells you you won't have it with that car? you didn't try!
- you change now your M4 with a Porsche whatever number. Good for you! you have the money to spend the double amount of an M3, happy for you. Now go to the Porsche Forum and be happy there and stop flaming here, it's annoying.

There are people here who like that car and like to discuss about it, and it's also okay to point sometimes out the negative aspects but your post's are really getting tiring and boring...Jesus every manufactor has stuff which people may like or don't.
You make the impression to be that kind of guy who want's to keep tradition in every aspect at every cost no matter on what topic.
Screw evolution, right?


oh and p.s.
at least in this segment they are still offering MT. Thank you BMW !

Actually no, you don't get it. You're probably too new around here...

[c01]

I am very happy that CanAutM3 is still a part of the community.
If someone is willing to understand, the value of his posts is obvious.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by c01

I am very happy that CanAutM3 is still a part of the community.
If someone is willing to understand, the value of his posts is obvious.

I hope he stays but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. This "new" BMW doesn't have much left for the enthusiast/long time owners.

Moving to Porsche is the most applicable thing he/we/I can do.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by c01

I am very happy that CanAutM3 is still a part of the community.
If someone is willing to understand, the value of his posts is obvious.

I certainly appreciate his technical contributions and have implored him to stay no matter. This community is in shambles of late and we are certainly better off with him,

That being said, CanAutM3 and I don't agree on anything these days. Such is life.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

I certainly appreciate his technical contributions and have implored him to stay no matter. This community is in shambles of late and we are certainly better off with him,

That being said, CanAutM3 and I don't agree on anything these days. Such is life.

I trust CanAutM3’s technical knowledge more than most here and enjoy discussing with him but I don’t agree with him that we are at a stage where we can judge the merits of the car fairly and trash it. IMO the new car has a lot going for it and chances are good it is a stormer.

Will it be more costly to run on the track? No doubt but nowhere near the car he is getting
On that topic, just got our Cayenne back from yearly oil service and swapping a faulty central locking actuator. $1500...and they tried to sell me a new cardan shaft for $4k claiming that it leaked oil, lol. I asked to talk to the technician and it was as expected a session of foot scraping, backtracking from that bs. CanAutM3 going to need that technical knowledge cause these dealers are used to selling bridges to rich clueless folks.

[Scorp!on]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Actually no, you don't get it. You're probably too new around here...

I apologize if I got you wrong, it was only the impression your posts made to me (fully subjective) and it annoyed me at the time where I wrote my post.

People can disagree with whatever in this world, I just don't like it when someone has to point out all the time what is negative...In the end it is as it is, BMW is going this direction. If they will have success with it the time will tell.

[duky]

Originally Posted by ryivnx

It's very interesting to me that BMW M division is trying to appeal to a much younger and wider population. As someone pointed out at 100k+ for a car most people would at least be in their early 30s - kind of like the Porsche customers. I'm not hating - I am also an "elder" millennial but I have a very good job and own 4 BMWs (two of which are M). I will likely end up getting the new M4 but seeing some YouTube "influencer" advertise it to me is not good marketing IMO..

Companies have to look at their marketing budgets and decide whether to focus on bringing in more of the same type of customer/user persona (assuming the market still exists and is growing), a new customer/user persona that exists/is growing, or in rare cases create a new persona where it does not exist.

BMW M simply did what any prudent business needs to do and looked at its demographics to understand where the market is growing/shrinking and I'm sure the data showed that the market (persona) it typically goes for is shrinking (how many conversations have we had with enthusiasts who are talking about their next car being the Model 3, etc.). They had a few options - change the car, change the marketing, or create new categories and capture all of the pies.

I think they decided to do all of the above. That is, they changed the car a bit (bold new look, less focus on weight savings, more on aggressive details), they changed the marketing to appeal to a younger crowd that they are worried no longer cares about cars to convince them that hey cars are really cool, and they at the same time are pursuing other categories (touring, electrification, etc.). The bet they took is that by keeping enough of the DNA alive (manual, dual purpose, rawness) they would still keep their traditional segment interested and only time will tell if they actually lost a lot more of this segment than they gained in new segments. I believe they won't lose many despite all the whining around here.

Looking forward to seeing (and feeling) the outcome!

[M-SP0RT]

Originally Posted by Scorp!on

I apologize if I got you wrong, it was only the impression your posts made to me (fully subjective) and it annoyed me at the time where I wrote my post.

People can disagree with whatever in this world, I just don't like it when someone has to point out all the time what is negative...In the end it is as it is, BMW is going this direction. If they will have success with it the time will tell.

Scorp!on, I agree CanAutM3's posts against the G8X can be repetitive but I also agree with others he does have valuable critical input. Just like in day-to-day life, sometimes we need different opinions on these forums to have a good discussion and hear different thoughts & perspectives. We all have something in common which is our love of the BMW M brand despite certain models (or phases/times) that may be disappointing to some, who could express strong opinions at times.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

I trust CanAutM3’s technical knowledge more than most here and enjoy discussing with him but I don’t agree with him that we are at a stage where we can judge the merits of the car fairly and trash it. IMO the new car has a lot going for it and chances are good it is a stormer.

Will it be more costly to run on the track? No doubt but nowhere near the car he is getting

As with most things in life, it is not a question of absolutes; of black or white. It is rather where things are in a spectrum; what shade of grey they are.

As with all the other competitors in that segment, the G8X will most likely be an excellent car to drive, I have no doubts about that. Be it the C63S, RS5, ATS-V, Giulia QV or the M3/4, I don't believe anyone can say that any of these are crappy to drive. It is more a question of where they fit in the spectrum and what particular aspect one prefers to favour. It is about details and small nuances. It is not because I dislike the direction that the G8X is taking that I am "thrashing" it.

While I really loved my E92 M3 and it did out-handle my previous E46 M3, it did feel heavier and bit more numb in comparison. Biermann and his team really did something great dynamically with the F8X. I find the F8X brought back the nimbleness of the E46 (my DCT M4cs is within a few lbs of my 2001 E46 6MT M3) while maintaining the sure footedness of the E92 with power that massively eclipsed both. For sure, having a nimble chassis combined with big power and torque had some distraught journalists and owners complaining about the the unsettled rear. But for me, I found the F8X chassis very playfull and predictable, a real joy to drive on track. It moved the needle towards my preferred side of the spectrum.

However, with the M3(4) in general being used more and more as a street only car, it is becoming more of a mainstream vehicle and less of a niche market. That "playfullness" of the F8X might have played against it in the elaboration of the G8X for its intended demographic. I was lucky enough to be able to spend a fair bit of seat time with an F90 M5 on track for multiple sessions to be able to get a very good appreciation of it. It is a very impressive machine, fast as hell. Hard to believe that such a big and heavy sedan can achieve what it can. But as amazing as it is, it still feels like a big and heavy sedan. Compared to my M4, it feels jittery to inputs but slow to take a set. Plus the 8AT is just not as sharp as the DCT, and you always feel for those overburdened front tires. The C63S and RS5 I've driven on track had the same type of feel. Now the G8X will not be as big or heavy as the M5, however it is moving the needle in that direction of the spectrum that pleases me less.

On paper at least, combined with the marketing strategy, BMW seems to be telling me I am no longer the target demographic for the M3/4. Hence why I moving on to something else; knowing full well of the increased cost , but I am also changing performance brackets to a significant extent .

And since I'll still be an ///M owner for another 6 months or so, you'll have to endure me ranting about the G8X on the forum for at least that period .

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

However, with the M3(4) in general being used more and more as a street only car, it is becoming more of a mainstream vehicle and less of a niche market.

I appreciate the write up and the experience. Not sure I agree with you here so correct me if I am wrong. The M3 has always been predominantly a street car for those that owned it. A minority of owners across the F8x gen track their cars, although you and I are in that minority.

However, hasn't that been the same for M3 owners across all 5 generations? If anything, it seems to me as a casual observer that people track their personal cars now more than ever.

The proliferation of driving clubs (with easy access on the internet to join and view events), the existence of websites like motorsportsreg that send me an email for any event with 250 miles of my zip, the videos we all see of laptimes, etc., it just seems more and more people are buying their own helmet on amazon and showing up to the track.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

I appreciate the write up and the experience. Not sure I agree with you here so correct me if I am wrong. The M3 has always been predominantly a street car for those that owned it. A minority of owners across the F8x gen track their cars, although you and I are in that minority.

However, hasn't that been the same for M3 owners across all 5 generations? If anything, it seems to me as a casual observer that people track their personal cars now more than ever.

The proliferation of driving clubs (with easy access on the internet to join and view events), the existence of websites like motorsportsreg that send me an email for any event with 250 miles of my zip, the videos we all see of laptimes, etc., it just seems more and more people are buying their own helmet on amazon and showing up to the track.

I don't have any hard statistics to share, but it seems to me that folks that got into an M3 in the early days accepted the inherent compromises that came with the track focus of the car, even those that would rarely take it to the track, if at all.

I think it is simply a question of sheer increase in volume of M3(4) produced and sold over the generations, the car has simply become more mainstream, and the majority of folks now only want the fastest and "best looking" 3/4 series.

[solstice]

@CanAutM3, I don’t disagree with you, IF the G8X drives like a small M5 and IF it’s not playful on the track in any factory configuration. I just think it’s too early to say that before anyone has reviewed it properly. The paper numbers aren’t always the whole story.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I don't have any hard statistics to share, but it seems to me that folks that got into an M3 in the early days accepted the inherent compromises that came with the track focus of the car, even those that would rarely take it to the track, if at all.

I think it is simply a question of sheer increase in volume of M3(4) produced and sold over the generations, the car has simply become more mainstream, and the majority of folks now only want the fastest and "best looking" 3/4 series.

They've made it more cushy, that's for sure, but it's still a pain in the ass to drive.

I had a 530i as a loaner last week while I got my winters put on and my CS serviced. I hadn't driven a luxury car in so long I forgot how nice it is. Imagine my friend, having a center console and climate control in the backseat?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Imagine my friend, having a center console and climate control in the backseat?

You see, I couldn't care less for either

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You see, I couldn't care less for either

Nor could I!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

@CanAutM3, I don’t disagree with you, IF the G8X drives like a small M5 and IF it’s not playful on the track in any factory configuration. I just think it’s too early to say that before anyone has reviewed it properly. The paper numbers aren’t always the whole story.

The fact that it is now offered with PSC2 as an option, the initial driving review by AM&S/SA and those CF bucket seats all give me hope. But there is no denying the physics.

I can't wait to drive one on track, I'm sure I'll have the opportunity at some point

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The fact that it is now offered with PSC2 as an option, the initial driving review by AM&S/SA and those CF bucket seats all give me hope. But there is no denying the physics.

I can't wait to drive one on track, I'm sure I'll have the opportunity at some point

Both BMW and Porsche are known to bend physics...

- A car this size shouldn’t be this fun and able to do this
- It defies physics
- The near 5000 lbs truck feels and drives like a sports sedan.
- It drives small.
- It’s faster than yesterday’s super cars, by a margin.

How many times have you heard this about their cars? It’s almost a constant.

You keep that hope very close to your chest...well guarded secret I would say.