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      10-11-2020, 04:37 PM   #67
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Carrera 4 manual

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Originally Posted by brianeck View Post
Am I missing something, or has BMW very craftilly dealt the final blow to the manual that they've inevitably wanted to for some time?

For years we have heard about how the marketing and sales projections point to low use of manuals before they are actually ever sold, meaning that cars shouldn't ever be offered in this format in the first place.

Now we have an enthusiasts car, where things like performance, peak power, and acceleration really do matter. We have a platform from the F80 year where people openly said they would take a DCT over a 6MT because it was 2/10ths faster in the quarter mile. .

From here, with the G80 model lineup, BMW decides to launch the 6MT m3 once again, but only with significantly less power than the competition model, and not in the AWD variant.

It's inconceivable to think that 6MT sales won't be affected by people who want the fastest, most powerful version of the car, or people like me who need a daily that can comfortably handle rough winter commutes (currently in a b8.5 s4 6mt).

I don't see any reason for launching a manual version of this car in a crippled, less exciting format other than to forcibly generate market data that fraudulently shows that people prefer the automatic transmission due to take rates. In my humble opinion, this car is the culmination of everything the auto industry has been pushing the market towards for the last 10 years. . . .

When you launch a dumbed down version of an "enthusiasts" car for the enthusiasts, you all but force them to take the car you prefer that they buy in the first place.

It's like a shitty transparent psychological experiment.

Now inevitably the aftermarket will help with leveling the playing field on the crippled output of the 6mt. . . . While that may be enough for me, I do not think it will be enough for most potential 6mt buyers. I also really want an M-AWD car! There are effectively no performance oriented awd manual 4wd cars offered anymore. Every time a used b8.5 5mt goes on the market it sells within a day, so I have a really hard time believing that nobody else wants this type of vehicle.

With the above stated - I haven't read enough yet to understand how exactly the competition delivers it's additional power. . . If it's just a tune or something then so be it. If it's more, then the 6mt is still considerably more hindered for after market modding as well.

From what I can tell, this competition package is absurdly cheap. . . <$3000. That's less than the delta to get a DCT car in the F80 variant. It's a no brainer for all but the most loyal diehard 6mt club, who live in a winter less region or who can afford a winter beater/daily or a garage queen.

Am I missing something, or has BMW really stabbed the 6MT in the back with a poisoned dagger right in front of our eyes while pretending to cater to our desires?
CARRERA 4 manual. BMW is dead anyway (pains me to say as I've owned 3 M3's)
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      10-11-2020, 04:43 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Hoosiers View Post
CARRERA 4 manual. BMW is dead anyway (pains me to say as I've owned 3 M3's)

First of all go hoosiers!!!!

second, agreed with BMW being dead for PURISTS.

lastly!! GT4 manual > carrera 4! mainly due to more power for less weight and because you can get a GT car for the same price as a optioned out entry 911
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      10-12-2020, 09:33 AM   #69
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second, agreed with BMW being dead for PURISTS.
What a strange and untrue point of differentiation. 6MT Dead for "PURISTS."

Have you owned or driven an F8x in 6MT? Have you owned or driven an M2 Comp in 6MT? Are you aware that, on a very limited production model, BMW decided to keep the 6MT on the M2 CS?

Can you explain what you're basing this on?

I have driven a GT4 in manual, by the way. Fantastic car, wish I had more than 20 min in it. It's a pure sports car, and not created in the same spirit as any of the cars I mentioned above.

My first F80 (not the piece of sh*t CS with a DCT I have now) was by far the most fun and practical 6MT I've ever owned in 20 years of driving 6MT.
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      10-12-2020, 05:34 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
What a strange and untrue point of differentiation. 6MT Dead for "PURISTS."

Have you owned or driven an F8x in 6MT? Have you owned or driven an M2 Comp in 6MT? Are you aware that, on a very limited production model, BMW decided to keep the 6MT on the M2 CS?

Can you explain what you're basing this on?

I have driven a GT4 in manual, by the way. Fantastic car, wish I had more than 20 min in it. It's a pure sports car, and not created in the same spirit as any of the cars I mentioned above.

My first F80 (not the piece of sh*t CS with a DCT I have now) was by far the most fun and practical 6MT I've ever owned in 20 years of driving 6MT.
I'm not saying 6 MT is dead. I'm saying the new cars will be gross to a lot of purists as in they only gave 6MT to the castrated lowered powered models.

Ive driven M2C DCT and M3 6mt. I have no qualms about the current cars being great purist cars and honestly loved the F80 6MT, but to call the new BMW lineup from here on out purist car is being generous.

By dead I mean BMW's core market for G8x is clearly no longer the 6MT RWD "PURIST" buyers and that Porsche will pick up some of the hardcore drivers who don't want a compromised manual car.
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      10-12-2020, 05:48 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Avaley View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
What a strange and untrue point of differentiation. 6MT Dead for "PURISTS."

Have you owned or driven an F8x in 6MT? Have you owned or driven an M2 Comp in 6MT? Are you aware that, on a very limited production model, BMW decided to keep the 6MT on the M2 CS?

Can you explain what you're basing this on?

I have driven a GT4 in manual, by the way. Fantastic car, wish I had more than 20 min in it. It's a pure sports car, and not created in the same spirit as any of the cars I mentioned above.

My first F80 (not the piece of sh*t CS with a DCT I have now) was by far the most fun and practical 6MT I've ever owned in 20 years of driving 6MT.
I'm not saying 6 MT is dead. I'm saying the new cars will be gross to a lot of purists as in they only gave 6MT to the castrated lowered powered models.

Ive driven M2C DCT and M3 6mt. I have no qualms about the current cars being great purist cars and honestly loved the F80 6MT, but to call the new BMW lineup from here on out purist car is being generous.

By dead I mean BMW's core market for G8x is clearly no longer the 6MT RWD "PURIST" buyers and that Porsche will pick up some of the hardcore drivers who don't want a compromised manual car.
BMW's core market aimed squarely on MT drivers have been long gone even before the G80 came into existence. Here is the thing, based on how long you have been on the forum or been around BMWs, your interpretation changes. When the E46 came out, people thought it was skewing too far to the luxury side. Then the E90 came, same story, F80...so on. But more recently, we looked back and thought the E46 was phenomenal. And oh man the E30 was pure driving heaven. It's just the trend of people's thinking of the past always better than the future (to a degree).

And I wouldn't say Porsche is hardcore either. Sure compared to BMW and if you get into some GT cars. But GT cars cannot be compared to M cars. Similarly, Lotus is capitalizing on former Porsche enthusiasts who thinks Porsche has lost its direction...
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      10-12-2020, 06:13 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
BMW's core market aimed squarely on MT drivers have been long gone even before the G80 came into existence. Here is the thing, based on how long you have been on the forum or been around BMWs, your interpretation changes. When the E46 came out, people thought it was skewing too far to the luxury side. Then the E90 came, same story, F80...so on. But more recently, we looked back and thought the E46 was phenomenal. And oh man the E30 was pure driving heaven. It's just the trend of people's thinking of the past always better than the future (to a degree).

And I wouldn't say Porsche is hardcore either. Sure compared to BMW and if you get into some GT cars. But GT cars cannot be compared to M cars. Similarly, Lotus is capitalizing on former Porsche enthusiasts who thinks Porsche has lost its direction...
Give it 10 years and people will be waxing lyrical about the g8x being the last true m yada yada yada
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      10-12-2020, 06:22 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Give it 10 years and people will be waxing lyrical about the g8x being the last true m yada yada yada
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
BMW's core market aimed squarely on MT drivers have been long gone even before the G80 came into existence. Here is the thing, based on how long you have been on the forum or been around BMWs, your interpretation changes. When the E46 came out, people thought it was skewing too far to the luxury side. Then the E90 came, same story, F80...so on. But more recently, we looked back and thought the E46 was phenomenal. And oh man the E30 was pure driving heaven. It's just the trend of people's thinking of the past always better than the future (to a degree).

And I wouldn't say Porsche is hardcore either. Sure compared to BMW and if you get into some GT cars. But GT cars cannot be compared to M cars. Similarly, Lotus is capitalizing on former Porsche enthusiasts who thinks Porsche has lost its direction...
So much truth.

....M1000RR stage 5 decat with a passenger seat delete is the only true purist vehicle and true M product imho
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      10-13-2020, 08:29 PM   #74
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I really, REALLY, want the g82 6mt in Isle of man green, but it also makes me really sad that the stick isn't available with the m-awd.

The 6mt + xdrive + luxury coupe combo is 100% what sold me on getting my current car over pretty much anything else (P cars being out of my price range)

I'm torn now because I love the colour, new tech, twin turbos, carbon buckets etc. But I feel like the g82 is going to be plagued with traction woes off a dig that my car doesn't have (albeit mine has less hp). Ironically though, my car has more torque than the g82 base, and also has 2 extra drive wheels to help put it down

I know there are those that live and die rwd+stick but I truly love AWD+stick and am sad that I have to decide between one or the other when my older and slower current gen has both
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      10-14-2020, 01:07 PM   #75
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I really, REALLY, want the g82 6mt in Isle of man green, but it also makes me really sad that the stick isn't available with the m-awd.

The 6mt + xdrive + luxury coupe combo is 100% what sold me on getting my current car over pretty much anything else (P cars being out of my price range)

I'm torn now because I love the colour, new tech, twin turbos, carbon buckets etc. But I feel like the g82 is going to be plagued with traction woes off a dig that my car doesn't have (albeit mine has less hp). Ironically though, my car has more torque than the g82 base, and also has 2 extra drive wheels to help put it down

I know there are those that live and die rwd+stick but I truly love AWD+stick and am sad that I have to decide between one or the other when my older and slower current gen has both
Allow me to provide you some reassurance my friend.

If you go from your current 435 to a G82 in 6MT, you will never ever regret it. The traction issues on a RWD car are not insignificant, but with warm tires and a light foot, it's a thrilling car to drive.

I came from 5 Audi's before I got my first BMW F80 in 2016. It was the best decision I ever made. RWD is so much more fun. I was 34 years old when I made the switch and had never done a proper donut.

Let me also address the winter concern. I take my car skiing in Maine 7+ times each winter. With dedicated winter tires, which are, as I understand, a legal requirement in Canada, RWD is more than capable of reaching my condo at the top of a 1/2 mile hill.
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      10-15-2020, 09:28 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
BMW's core market aimed squarely on MT drivers have been long gone even before the G80 came into existence. Here is the thing, based on how long you have been on the forum or been around BMWs, your interpretation changes. When the E46 came out, people thought it was skewing too far to the luxury side. Then the E90 came, same story, F80...so on. But more recently, we looked back and thought the E46 was phenomenal. And oh man the E30 was pure driving heaven. It's just the trend of people's thinking of the past always better than the future (to a degree).

And I wouldn't say Porsche is hardcore either. Sure compared to BMW and if you get into some GT cars. But GT cars cannot be compared to M cars. Similarly, Lotus is capitalizing on former Porsche enthusiasts who thinks Porsche has lost its direction...
The 911 is more of a grand touring car (and straight line drag car) than the sports car it used to be and softer than an M-car. The Cayman GT4 is the sports car in their lineup.
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      10-15-2020, 10:23 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
BMW's core market aimed squarely on MT drivers have been long gone even before the G80 came into existence. Here is the thing, based on how long you have been on the forum or been around BMWs, your interpretation changes. When the E46 came out, people thought it was skewing too far to the luxury side. Then the E90 came, same story, F80...so on. But more recently, we looked back and thought the E46 was phenomenal. And oh man the E30 was pure driving heaven. It's just the trend of people's thinking of the past always better than the future (to a degree).

And I wouldn't say Porsche is hardcore either. Sure compared to BMW and if you get into some GT cars. But GT cars cannot be compared to M cars. Similarly, Lotus is capitalizing on former Porsche enthusiasts who thinks Porsche has lost its direction...
The 911 is more of a grand touring car (and straight line drag car) than the sports car it used to be and softer than an M-car. The Cayman GT4 is the sports car in their lineup.
Thank you for sharing, not sure if this was just a general note or a response to my post?

If it was a response to my post, it doesn't really change the statement because I was not comparing to a Porsche non-GT car...
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      10-15-2020, 01:47 PM   #78
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I think BMW is asking manual enthusiasts/purists to put their money where their mouth is. They’re calling the bluff, and if there is enough uptake, it might stay. If there is no interest, it’ll fade away.

I think if the interest is there, nothing is stopping them from adding ZCP to a RWD car, and possibly AWD by LCI, but I think meeting in the middle is fair if they just did it with AWD. But the demand has to be there.

They also might have thought that those manual transmission purists wanted to stay RWD. It makes sense when you think about it, when you want the “drivers car”.
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      10-16-2020, 03:27 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectors2final View Post
I think BMW is asking manual enthusiasts/purists to put their money where their mouth is. They’re calling the bluff, and if there is enough uptake, it might stay. If there is no interest, it’ll fade away.

I think if the interest is there, nothing is stopping them from adding ZCP to a RWD car, and possibly AWD by LCI, but I think meeting in the middle is fair if they just did it with AWD. But the demand has to be there.

They also might have thought that those manual transmission purists wanted to stay RWD. It makes sense when you think about it, when you want the “drivers car”.
It's also not available in the UK or Middle-east region
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      10-16-2020, 04:12 AM   #80
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lol 6MT and RWD ist like 90% of the reason why I ordered a G80.
Who tf cares about this 30HP? 480 is still a blast and if you want more, tune it.
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      10-16-2020, 07:06 AM   #81
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This is comparable to saying you shouldn't consider the M2C, which is heralded as one of the best M's in recent time, because the S55 is neutered compared to the M3/4.

Gotta love these forums
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      10-16-2020, 08:43 AM   #82
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This is comparable to saying you shouldn't consider the M2C, which is heralded as one of the best M's in recent time, because the S55 is neutered compared to the M3/4.

Gotta love these forums
Great analogy. This thread is particularly virulent, even for these forums (which are near and dear to my heart) lol.
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      10-16-2020, 02:13 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by codestar View Post
I really, REALLY, want the g82 6mt in Isle of man green, but it also makes me really sad that the stick isn't available with the m-awd.

The 6mt + xdrive + luxury coupe combo is 100% what sold me on getting my current car over pretty much anything else (P cars being out of my price range)

I'm torn now because I love the colour, new tech, twin turbos, carbon buckets etc. But I feel like the g82 is going to be plagued with traction woes off a dig that my car doesn't have (albeit mine has less hp). Ironically though, my car has more torque than the g82 base, and also has 2 extra drive wheels to help put it down

I know there are those that live and die rwd+stick but I truly love AWD+stick and am sad that I have to decide between one or the other when my older and slower current gen has both
Allow me to provide you some reassurance my friend.

If you go from your current 435 to a G82 in 6MT, you will never ever regret it. The traction issues on a RWD car are not insignificant, but with warm tires and a light foot, it's a thrilling car to drive.

I came from 5 Audi's before I got my first BMW F80 in 2016. It was the best decision I ever made. RWD is so much more fun. I was 34 years old when I made the switch and had never done a proper donut.

Let me also address the winter concern. I take my car skiing in Maine 7+ times each winter. With dedicated winter tires, which are, as I understand, a legal requirement in Canada, RWD is more than capable of reaching my condo at the top of a 1/2 mile hill.
Thanks for the reply. The winter part is definitely one worry (if you've ever seen the show Highway to Hell that highway is what separates me from my family most Christmases) but for those trips I'll be using an SUV from here on out anyways. The part that worries me most is wet weather; Van is rainy and miserable for a considerable portion of the year. The video posted today with Chris Harris puts it nicely where he says every m3 owner's worst nightmare is pulling up next to an rs4 in pouring rain and watching it zoom off in the distance while you're squirrelly seeing the traction light flashing and not moving.

I really don't care about the HP/tq hit in the manual as much as I wish I could have the AWD strictly for the extra traction in all weather scenarios, not just when it's sunny out. Which is why I'm sad and torn on letting go of my mt xdrive f32 for the mt rwd g80. The g80 will blow my car out of the water in pretty much every other aspect except for the AWD, which in my eyes is the most important one
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      10-16-2020, 02:16 PM   #84
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Thanks for the reply. The winter part is definitely one worry (if you've ever seen the show Highway to Hell that highway is what separates me from my family most Christmases) but for those trips I'll be using an SUV from here on out anyways. The part that worries me most is wet weather; Van is rainy and miserable for a considerable portion of the year. The video posted today with Chris Harris puts it nicely where he says every m3 owner's worst nightmare is pulling up next to an rs4 in pouring rain and watching it zoom off in the distance while you're squirrelly seeing the traction light flashing and not moving.

I really don't care about the HP/tq hit in the manual as much as I wish I could have the AWD strictly for the extra traction in all weather scenarios, not just when it's sunny out. Which is why I'm sad and torn on letting go of my mt xdrive f32 for the mt rwd g80. The g80 will blow my car out of the water in pretty much every other aspect except for the AWD, which in my eyes is the most important one
Michelin Pilot Alpin winter tires my man...who needs 4 wheels when you have amazing winter tires. They help in the wet as well.

I run PS4S during the non-winter season (April to November) on my M3 CS (the tire the G80 comes with) and find they handle heavy rain beautifully.
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      10-17-2020, 04:25 PM   #85
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Michelin Pilot Alpin winter tires my man...who needs 4 wheels when you have amazing winter tires. They help in the wet as well.

I run PS4S during the non-winter season (April to November) on my M3 CS (the tire the G80 comes with) and find they handle heavy rain beautifully.
They are great winter tires, but they are 100% better on an AWD car. In my S4, I can stomp around with relatively standard ease and attitude in 95% of winter scenarios. A little snow in the M3 and even with the snow tires you're driving it like a grandma. As such, M3/4 Competition drivers in areas like where I live in NY will have a 100% more enjoyable driving experience during the winter months, and people who daily drive 1 car in these areas are definitely going to think twice about that AWD option being more important than the manual.

I think a lot of you guys are really, really missing the point of my thread here. I'm not saying that BMW is killing the manual by providing a competition model that has a few more horsepower (and 70 foot pounds of torque).

That's one of 5 reasons why I believe this product positioning will dramatically reduce the already awful manual take rate.

The other reasons are now it isn't just an M DCT for $3,500 on the same platform. . . It's a faster car with way more Torque that ALSO has selectable on/off AWD.

It doesn't have to take up a driveway or garage slot in the winter on snowy days, and you don't actually have to get an SUV/winter beater if you get the Competition/AWD. That literally makes it way more valuable to many consumers - not just faster. At that point the extra $3,500 on the price tag is legitimately a worthwhile investment. My s4 goes anywhere in all but legit deep, heavy snow. I also drove my m3 in situations a lot of people would probably cringe/go nuts over.

You have option heads, 4 season drivers, "horsepower sluts (who seem to get the most chagrin overall), and those who don't do a ton of modding/prefer to lease and are afraid of BMW finding out about tunes etc now with other viable options.

We already know (because we hear all the time) that the uptake rate on manual cars is low in the US when they are offered at parity to their automatic counterparts. It stands to reason that it will very likely be even lower because of the way the options can pivot some buyers.

Since the take rate is already "low enough" that every other car model and manufacturer has trashed the manual, I just hope and pray that this isn't the final straw. In 2 years when BMW says "see look, we tried and for some reason people only wanted the faster, safer, all weather version of the car in all US markets except the permasummer states" I just hope someone is able to make the case that it wasn't a fair fight to some level of understanding.
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      10-17-2020, 04:43 PM   #86
frankiebones
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Michelin Pilot Alpin winter tires my man...who needs 4 wheels when you have amazing winter tires. They help in the wet as well.

I run PS4S during the non-winter season (April to November) on my M3 CS (the tire the G80 comes with) and find they handle heavy rain beautifully.
They are great winter tires, but they are 100% better on an AWD car. In my S4, I can stomp around with relatively standard ease and attitude in 95% of winter scenarios. A little snow in the M3 and even with the snow tires you're driving it like a grandma. As such, M3/4 Competition drivers in areas like where I live in NY will have a 100% more enjoyable driving experience during the winter months, and people who daily drive 1 car in these areas are definitely going to think twice about that AWD option being more important than the manual.

I think a lot of you guys are really, really missing the point of my thread here. I'm not saying that BMW is killing the manual by providing a competition model that has a few more horsepower (and 70 foot pounds of torque).

That's one of 5 reasons why I believe this product positioning will dramatically reduce the already awful manual take rate.

The other reasons are now it isn't just an M DCT for $3,500 on the same platform. . . It's a faster car with way more Torque that ALSO has selectable on/off AWD.

It doesn't have to take up a driveway or garage slot in the winter on snowy days, and you don't actually have to get an SUV/winter beater if you get the Competition/AWD. That literally makes it way more valuable to many consumers - not just faster. At that point the extra $3,500 on the price tag is legitimately a worthwhile investment. My s4 goes anywhere in all but legit deep, heavy snow. I also drove my m3 in situations a lot of people would probably cringe/go nuts over.

You have option heads, 4 season drivers, "horsepower sluts (who seem to get the most chagrin overall), and those who don't do a ton of modding/prefer to lease and are afraid of BMW finding out about tunes etc now with other viable options.

We already know (because we hear all the time) that the uptake rate on manual cars is low in the US when they are offered at parity to their automatic counterparts. It stands to reason that it will very likely be even lower because of the way the options can pivot some buyers.

Since the take rate is already "low enough" that every other car model and manufacturer has trashed the manual, I just hope and pray that this isn't the final straw. In 2 years when BMW says "see look, we tried and for some reason people only wanted the faster, safer, all weather version of the car in all US markets except the permasummer states" I just hope someone is able to make the case that it wasn't a fair fight to some level of understanding.
There's no denying that winter tires on an AWD will outperform winter tires on a RWD...but RWD is certainly enough. I ski a lot and it's never been an issue. I used to drive S4's and RS4's. The F80 (I've had 2 of them) and subsequent rides I took in E9x M3s) made me regret the 15 years I spent in Audi's. AWD is, in my very informed and educated opinion, overrated.

The G80 in manual will be more fun than the G80 NOT in manual. I don't think many 6MT drivers are disputing that. Of course I want more torque and power, but like I said, like you said, like we all said, that's what tuning is for.

Your initial post was all pissed off and was constructed in the aftermath of the reveal, when a lot of people were upset about a lot of sh*t. I get it, it is what it is.
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      10-17-2020, 05:43 PM   #87
codestar
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Thanks for the reply. The winter part is definitely one worry (if you've ever seen the show Highway to Hell that highway is what separates me from my family most Christmases) but for those trips I'll be using an SUV from here on out anyways. The part that worries me most is wet weather; Van is rainy and miserable for a considerable portion of the year. The video posted today with Chris Harris puts it nicely where he says every m3 owner's worst nightmare is pulling up next to an rs4 in pouring rain and watching it zoom off in the distance while you're squirrelly seeing the traction light flashing and not moving.

I really don't care about the HP/tq hit in the manual as much as I wish I could have the AWD strictly for the extra traction in all weather scenarios, not just when it's sunny out. Which is why I'm sad and torn on letting go of my mt xdrive f32 for the mt rwd g80. The g80 will blow my car out of the water in pretty much every other aspect except for the AWD, which in my eyes is the most important one
Michelin Pilot Alpin winter tires my man...who needs 4 wheels when you have amazing winter tires. They help in the wet as well.

I run PS4S during the non-winter season (April to November) on my M3 CS (the tire the G80 comes with) and find they handle heavy rain beautifully.
I have alpins for my winter set. I agree that they are excellent tires

I will 100% be buying the 6mt, most likely the '22MY, but I truly am hoping that BMW will surprise us by adding the stick with xdrive. It's all but set in stone that this won't happen, but IF it did, I'd really think it would be THE the perfect car for my particular wants/needs.

As it stands I'll have to compromise on a 100k CDN vehicle and use the GF's SUV more than I would otherwise :

Either way, long live the manuals!
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      10-19-2020, 09:01 AM   #88
brianeck
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Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
There's no denying that winter tires on an AWD will outperform winter tires on a RWD...but RWD is certainly enough. I ski a lot and it's never been an issue. I used to drive S4's and RS4's. The F80 (I've had 2 of them) and subsequent rides I took in E9x M3s) made me regret the 15 years I spent in Audi's. AWD is, in my very informed and educated opinion, overrated.

The G80 in manual will be more fun than the G80 NOT in manual. I don't think many 6MT drivers are disputing that. Of course I want more torque and power, but like I said, like you said, like we all said, that's what tuning is for.

Your initial post was all pissed off and was constructed in the aftermath of the reveal, when a lot of people were upset about a lot of sh*t. I get it, it is what it is.
Hahaha I think your last sentence sums up what really happened here. Looking back I see the tone a bit more which I didn't notice at first. I'm not unhappy with the outcome as at least some of this thread was worthy discussion, but I promise I didn't mean to just flat out troll everyone. . .

I do in my own way just see a dark motive, just like when everyone tells us 9/10 cars sold are automatics. . . This makes sense when 99/100 cars aren't even offered in manual in the first place, and the 1 that is has other intrinsic benefits built in if you don't order the manual version.

Market research is one thing, and skewing it to your own production goals is something else entirely. We're 100% in the grey area as manual enthusiasts because there is definitely an agenda towards streamlining. Of course it costs car manufacturers less to have one transmission offered - it also costs less not to offer 500 overlapping 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 series cars and small SUVs that pinch of each others own markets.

Options are good for the consumer, but sometimes too many just waters everything down. I think there are a whole lot of other options with lower take rates than the MT which are still offered, so let's start by applying cost savings through their removal.
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