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View Poll Results: AWD?
Yes, AWD M3/M4 like the F90 M5 198 63.26%
No, keep it RWD 76 24.28%
Either way is cool with me 39 12.46%
Voters: 313. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-06-2017, 04:00 PM   #89
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AWD! no flicking back in forth between AWD & RWD.
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      09-06-2017, 04:18 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
However if the next M3 will be a hybrid...
It won't be. I mean I don't know that for certain, but I'd put the chances on that even lower than AWD. Why? Because hybrid drivetrains are expensive and, for this application, unnecessary to achieve the desired performance goals while meeting efficiency and emissions targets.

Someday we will have AWD hybrid electric M3s with 600hp. But not next generation.
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      09-06-2017, 04:30 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It won't be. I mean I don't know that for certain, but I'd put the chances on that even lower than AWD. Why? Because hybrid drivetrains are expensive and, for this application, unnecessary to achieve the desired performance goals while meeting efficiency and emissions targets.

Someday we will have AWD hybrid electric M3s with 600hp. But not next generation.
That makes sense. Personally I would rather have a Honda NSX type M3 than a faster more luxurious F80 ( with or without AWD ) since this is by far my least favorite generation. It's a better car than most but I just can't love it and looking at likely future options an NSX type of drive train excites me more. With an F80 like motor I'll pass the next generation.
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      09-06-2017, 04:58 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JibSTir13 View Post
One huge benefit will the drop in 0-60 time, which will help BMW against the competition in the stats department.

I agree if you can get all the power down on these cars are all wheel drive mode it would be huge ,, Porsche, Lambo's have been doing it for years with all that horsepower ,,,BMW can do it to... not only huge increase in performance but a safer driving machine too...
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      09-06-2017, 06:58 PM   #93
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Any reason why they cant just offer both options ? make all happy.

Ability to toggle rwd to awd is cool, but why not let people buy what they really want.
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      09-06-2017, 07:35 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSups6 View Post
Any reason why they cant just offer both options ? make all happy.
Operations optimization. More options means more complex production lines, logistics, supply, service, training, inventory, increased complexity, etc. All of that costs money.

There is also the product development cost associated with that. Every variant has to be properly tested and fine tuned. They can do that for mainstream 3ers but not M3's. There is no business model to support the ROI.
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      09-07-2017, 01:05 AM   #95
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As long as it comes in a 6MT, I'm happy....
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      09-07-2017, 01:27 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC View Post
Operations optimization. More options means more complex production lines, logistics, supply, service, training, inventory, increased complexity, etc. All of that costs money.

There is also the product development cost associated with that. Every variant has to be properly tested and fine tuned. They can do that for mainstream 3ers but not M3's. There is no business model to support the ROI.
STOP SAYING WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      09-07-2017, 08:59 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
Meh. The production line itself doesn?t get any more complex than it already is. R&D is already done. Thank you M5.

The only change is that the part would need to end up in Munich or Regensburg. This assuming, much like the DCT being shared, the drivetrain is essentially also shared.
With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about. Cars are not Lego sets.

I have many years as lead engineer in the product development of machinery and instrumentation. I also managed the manufacturing engineering group on the operations side. The stuff I've worked on is dwarfed by cars in terms of scope and logistics. The amount of effort to properly bring a product like that to market with the level of quality needed so that people don't bitch and moan incessantly on car forums is simply mind-blowing. To trivialize that is ignorance.
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      09-07-2017, 10:34 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
Fair enough, but with respect to R&D, the system already exists. While I appreciate it being potentially introduced onto a new platform is technically different, the fact that it exists already, and that R&D for the successor of the F8X will be done regardless, it seems it's a bit of a wash. It's not as though they're developing a drivetrain from scratch per se. Are there cost savings from a supply, and to a certain extent logistics perspective by sharing parts across platforms? Of course there are.

I appreciate your experience, but if using the same parts in the same capacity, how significant are the expenses you're referring to?

Is there a significant difference for the worker on the line bolting up a manual trans vs a DCT? Is there a significant difference between bolting a motor into a 435 vs an M4?

When the changeover occurs, there's going to be training regardless on the lines to adjust for the new parts. All the changes would be accounted for during the introduction of the new platform. Is there any significant difference between the difference of three parts as opposed to four? Welt already makes five different variants of vehicles. Of which, those variants have variants.

Again, I appreciate what you're trying to say, but having two drive train options on one platform added to the mix doesn't seem like a huge logistical challenge to me in an operation that makes nearly 1000 cars a day.

And due respect back to you of course.
On the development side, of course they leverage components and subsystems. But again, these are not Lego sets. Just because it fits doesn't mean it works. You need to do a bunch of analyses (FEA for stress & deflection, fatigue, thermal, corrosion, etc). Once you are happy, you prototype, build and test them (which takes a while just to get parts). You may need need to design new adapters, couplings, etc. Then there is the shit load of meetings with different groups. Marketing weighs in on cost and argues with engineering about not making the part beefier or whatever. Then you feed back all your findings and re-prototype (god forbid you didn't find a deal breaker along the way). Maybe the best way for it to work on the M3/4 without making a new change is to also make the change for the M5 system so you that can keep a common component. If so, then they have to deal with those guys and possibly impact production components. Can they be gently phased in? Do they have to scrap production and WIP inventory?)Are there tooling changes? What about training manuals? How much retesting on the M5 is needed? There is MUCH, MUCH more to worry about.

Then when all of that is done, they probably do road testing and performance. Marketing invariably weighs in heavily. What will be the market implications? Will one be noticeably better than the other and kill sales? What about cost? Then comes spec'ing tires and winter/dry/wet testing.

After all that, maybe everyone is in agreement. Now you have to establish supply chain negotiate costs with suppliers. You now reduced the volume of both, so both will get more expensive. In the line, you have to have make room to stock both, develop fixtures, program robots, develop work instructions for assembly of both, more testing to make sure both are put in properly. Especial tooling as needed. Marketing material needs to be created. How do you launch and promote the car with all these variants? How many demo cars do you make and which ones do you give to the press? Dealer service needs to be trained, manuals created, parts need to be stocked.

And all of this needs to be done so well that both an idiot with a lot of money or a track god can both beat the hell out of the car and car forums won't bitch.

Yeah, it's complicated.

Sure they offer variants. And all those variants incur the process I mentioned (which is probably a ignorant, low guess on my part). But at least they sell tens of thousands of those variants.

Why do you think they want to kill the 6MT?

Recall how BMW reacted to the E60 M5 and put in a 6MT. That was a total failure. And that was just a simpler 6MT instead of a DCT with no impact to the which wheels are driven. It was probably a ton of effort to that. That is why they killed it for the F10 M5. Not worth it.

Last edited by FC; 09-07-2017 at 04:03 PM..
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      09-07-2017, 11:30 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
STOP SAYING WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY
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      09-07-2017, 12:17 PM   #100
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Seems like from the results on this thread that the AWD haters are just the most vocal on the forum. Made me almost ashamed to be really okay with an intelligent AWD system like the M5. But now, I see there are other like minded individuals out there.
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      09-07-2017, 01:28 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC View Post
yeah, well, you did it again. We must work at the same company or something.
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      09-07-2017, 01:49 PM   #102
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The way I read things... and I often can't read well...

Everyone wants basically a luxurious GTR in every class.
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      09-07-2017, 02:42 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
The way I read things... and I often can't read well...

Everyone wants basically a luxurious GTR in every class.
correct, that is the product, and then market it differently.

Personally I was a huge fan of the E9x M - it had personality, but was not a comfortable car for non-sport people. The F8x is a much more comfortable car, and also much more sporty ... but what it lost was that day-to-day sport feel as you have to really push the car to break into the fun zone, but when you do you're breaking the law. For me that's the downside of the F8x.

But yeah, the product is a luxe daily driver that also wins all track/'ring/drag numbers so they can market it as a sports car.

because race car and also because kids are sweating in the back seat on long drives even though the temp control is the same as in the front. COME ON BMW!
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      09-07-2017, 04:04 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
yeah, well, you did it again. We must work at the same company or something.
Bob, is that you?

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      09-07-2017, 09:59 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC View Post
Bob, is that you?

Herbert??? Well, Herb, I agree -

BMW has a few mules out there with the M5 system and they're testing for performance, versatility, etc while at the same time analysts are looking at production costs, M5 AWD acceptance, these forums, potential new buyers, etc.

At a minimum you can already hear all the explosion of reviews: here's the performance with AWD on, on auto, RWD only, etc etc. The press release and marketing alone are going to attract a much larger audience and they may siphon off some 911 4C drivers.

From a revenue perspective I can't see how an AWD M3/4 wouldn't be a huge success ... just depends on the costs.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      09-07-2017, 11:39 PM   #106
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I think if they go AWD, it will still feel sporty as long as they reintroduce the CF driveshaft to compensate for the extra weight of the AWD...
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      09-08-2017, 11:04 AM   #107
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Yep I think they will go AWD and end the DCT. Will get the ZF just like the new M5. Phase out manual.
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      09-08-2017, 01:17 PM   #108
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AWD is inevitable.
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      09-08-2017, 01:27 PM   #109
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What if we are all wrong and they keep the same HP (~450-500 hp) and go lighter (knock off ~400 lbs) with RWD, and a manual transmission option? I am sure everyone will be happy with that!
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      09-08-2017, 02:32 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parabolica View Post
What if we are all wrong and they keep the same HP (~450-500 hp) and go lighter (knock off ~400 lbs) with RWD, and a manual transmission option? I am sure everyone will be happy with that!
Same power, less weight, focus on aero would be amazing.

3000lb, s55, 6mt, 285mm wide front/335mm wide rear tires, super aggressive aero and jrz rs pro coilovers please.

Oh wait, there was the super $$$ gts already and it wasn't any of that.. so never mind....

Sure, make it a 3900lb awd porker then
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