[beachBmmr]

So heres why OBD probably wont happen here...

The ECU is essentially a computer. And when you want to secure a computer, you encrypt the boot volume, and the boot loader is the only thing that contains the keys to decrypt the volume. This is common in commercial IT space/Cloud where you want to ensure that only authorized systems can boot your disk/read the data.

Femto is probably using a physical console port or an IO port to interrupt the bootloader, or introduce an exploit such as a stack overflow, or other vulnerability to interrupt the boot loader and gain access to the keys to decrypt the boot volume of the ECU and read the ECU program and make changes such as creating an entry point for OBD or CAN-BUS access to enable continuous re-tuning, essentially replacing the boot volumes contents.

BMW when they read the ECU will be able to checksum the boot volume and see it doesn't match OEM and detect a change to the system. This is a really simple thing to do with the right tools to read the system.

In short, if you have physical access to any system, it can be hacked. Its virtually impossible to prevent without building a system, then literally removing the I/O ports. But as the saying goes. if you can build it, you can unbuild it....so again, physical access with enough skill enables anything to be compromised,

[MIM5]

Wouldn't it be awesome if bmw themselves offered a dme unlock. Would be a win win for them if they charge for it and also made you sign something that you agree to void your warranty. Now there's an idea bmw 😂

[mike@x-ph.com]

Patiently waiting for an OBD tune, until then I'm enjoying the JB4

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by MIM5

Wouldn't it be awesome if bmw themselves offered a dme unlock. Would be a win win for them if they charge for it and also made you sign something that you agree to void your warranty. Now there's an idea bmw 😂

Ha ha. You funny

[GixY2K]

Really?
What was wrong with the old system?

You tune it via OBD/Ecutek/Accessport/etc., you break something related to the tune, you pay for it. Simple.

Now they lock the DME, you put a piggyback system, and you can still run the risk of breaking it. And folks know that if it was related to the piggyback, repairs will be on their dime.

BMW over-complicates their electronics for no apparent reason, IMO.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by GixY2K

Really?
What was wrong with the old system?

You tune it via OBD/Ecutek/Accessport/etc., you break something related to the tune, you pay for it. Simple.

Now they lock the DME, you put a piggyback system, and you can still run the risk of breaking it. And folks know that if it was related to the piggyback, repairs will be on their dime.

BMW over-complicates their electronics for no apparently reason, IMO.

I don't get what BMW is gaining by making flash tuning harder. They sold you the car and made their money, if you want to make more power, you should be able to

[kyleb350]

I think the issue is people want both their tuning and warranty.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by kyleb350

I think the issue is people want both their tuning and warranty.

Most people agree that you are responsible for the repair if your modification caused the damage.

If your tune had nothing to do with damage or if the damage is not related to the part you installed, your warranty should cover the work.

Sounds fair to me, and that's what the law says.

[BMWM4CX]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Most people agree that you are responsible for the repair if your modification caused the damage.

If your tune had nothing to do with damage or if the damage is not related to the part you installed, your warranty should cover the work.

Sounds fair to me, and that's what the law says.

I think locking people out serves to protect their intellectual property first and foremost, as well as avoids those people who tinker, go bang and then try to go back to stock and try to claim on their warranty.

[GixY2K]

Originally Posted by BMWM4CX

I think locking people out serves to protect their intellectual property first and foremost,

You would think. But manufacturers like Nissan and Subaru allow tune hardware like Cobb's Accessport to flash the ECU w/out (apparently) compromising the company's "intellectual property". As a matter of fact, you go to Cobb's or Ecutek's website and see how many different brands of cars are tune friendly to these tuning chips.

Originally Posted by BMWM4CX

as well as avoids those people who tinker, go bang and then try to go back to stock and try to claim on their warranty.

But have they accomplished that by locking the DME?
In reality, you can do the same with a piggyback system; break the car, unplug it, and then try to claim it was bone stock when it happened.

I think that when this happens, and the item in question surpasses a cost threshold, BMW will conduct a forensic investigation on the DME (locked or unlocked) to determined if any OEM limits were compromised (i.e. boost, torque, fuel trim, timing, etc.)

Good theories, but I don't think we're even close to the real reason why BMW is going to these extents to lock us out of their... wait, OUR DMEs!!!

[LongBeachDinanFan]

There will be OBDII loading tunes some day. There always is. Just needs to be enough demand to make it worth the big money for some company to figure out.

[Jon H]

It might be just general security issues with OTA updates and cars these days with some form of self driving? There was speculation of that MBZ car that was allegedly hacked and crashed on purpose years back.

[beachBmmr]

Regarding the locking out of the DME question.

We have the S58 with at least 4 different tunes, potentially 5. X3M, G87 M2 & M2C, M3/4, M3/4C, M4CSL (tune with some more forged bits). Tuning basically allows you to access different engine performance levels that BMW would rather you pay for, clearly...

[Alexp19]

Originally Posted by GixY2K

I believe I understand your analogy.

However, reading some of the previous posts, I think AhsanU hit the nail in the head. He said (and I'm paraphrasing here), "...there is not enough market for such an early model to invest on R&D to unlock the DME..." And to add to this, most G80/82 owners that want to chip their cars are pretty content with the JB4 and/or the RC from the "return on investment" perspective; $700-$900 compared to ~$4K. (IMO)

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers for posting a question that is probably in everybody's mind, including potential competitors.

Its all about the money.

[domino_z]

Bump

Any pyogrsss on an obd unlock, it’s been a while, you’d think someone would have cracked it by now

Is anyone actually working on it?

Physically shipping the dme and then having to avoid push software updates which may be necessary or offer increased usability in the infotainment, isn’t the best solution

I remember when I bought my f80 new the dme was locked too

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by domino_z

Bump

Any pyogrsss on an obd unlock, it’s been a while, you’d think someone would have cracked it by now

Is anyone actually working on it?

Physically shipping the dme and then having to avoid push software updates which may be necessary or offer increased usability in the infotainment, isn’t the best solution

I remember when I bought my f80 new the dme was locked too

no progress and won't happen any time soon (if ever)

this requires a lot of time and money to be done. Then after the OBD unlock is released, other companies can easily reverse-engineer it and start offering the OBD solution themselves.

I spoke to a few tuning companies, and they all said it's not worth the money and effort when its going to be stolen in a few months.

[Vectors2final]

Defeating hardware encryption requires a very specific skill set. It’s not hard to find someone who understands board and chip architecture, but finding someone who understands that as well as fault injection and leveraging JTAGs in an unorthodox manner to extract firmware are few and far between.

Even then, you still don’t get signed firmware binary that you can overwrite to your own value to flash via OBD, so the only thing you can do is pull the firmware down and modify it to your liking (I.e.Femto) and apply that using a similar method.

You would need someone to reverse engineer the signed firmware update process and figure out a way to apply that custom rom and bypass the trusted update process in order to achieve an OBD only unlock that elimates the requirement for physical hardware.

[JetDriver]

We're going through the same dilemna in the Audi world (8Y RS3). The RS3 has always been known as being a very tunable beast, but this new ECU is really peeing in our Cheerios as well. The only options we have right now are piggy-back (JB4, Race Chip, etc.) or sending your ECU away for a $4k+ bench tune. Gone are the days of a remote OBD tune from the comforts of your own garage. Looks like Syvecs will offer a stand-alone solution for $5k for the people going balls to the wall, but it's definitely not a practical option for the ones looking for Stage 1/1+ or even Stage 2 E30. So what's left? The only stop-gap I see are piggy-backs and I think JB4 is the best solution.

[uhNexus]

Originally Posted by m20e3087

Matter of time man. Same happened with F80x gen, hopefully by next year we should see reputable tuners releasing their tune. Waiting for BM3 myself.

Reputable shops near me were speculating it's due to epa compliance and wanting to avoid an audit. The EPA doesn't like engine modifications obviously, so selling tuning services would be more hassle than worth. Likely costlier in the long run.

[Vectors2final]

Originally Posted by uhNexus

Reputable shops near me were speculating it's due to epa compliance and wanting to avoid an audit. The EPA doesn't like engine modifications obviously, so selling tuning services would be more hassle than worth. Likely costlier in the long run.

Yeah... diesel shops have been raided, and they're cracking down on anyone who does mods for diesel platforms. So much so that even on the forums, these people talk "in code" now. You basically have to know a guy, and you gotta say all the right things.

I don't think anyone in the business wants to lose their shop and livelihood over something crazy like that.