[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

He knows that his internet argument is significantly flawed. He's just arguing out of boredom.

Nothing he said was accurate but I do think he believes it to be.

[xlover]

Originally Posted by Inductive

You would almost be correct if the incoherent design element at question was applied to only coupes, of which it is not (4 GC, M3 Sedan, iX).

The myopia that Dukec and his team suffer from is so severe that they slapped it on the iNext, the one product that is supposed to carry the brand out of obsolescence. So your excuse that it was some calculated tactic to succeed in coupe sales is based on broken logic.

The reality that you'd like to pretend doesn't exist (like an ostrich with its head planted in the sand) is such that the majority of the market ridicules the failed design, to the extent that the brand has become a meme - this is far beyond just a small group of "traditionalists" and their subjective criticisms. The highest praise written by an auto journalist to date is "controversial".

The blundering failure is further substantiated by BMW paying for advertorials to try and convince the public that the designers aren't THAT incompetent - or at least give them a break, they're just artists and humans.

Now, whether or not the grill was inspired by gaudy Chinese taste or not, only Dukec and his team can confirm. But back to the topic about "big grills", a large kidney grill is evident on the G11 LCI or the X7 - a large AND incoherent grill is what's on the G2X/G8X/iX. What's the difference? The disproportionate vertical length of the grill starts from above the hood line and continues down to the spoiler lip just above the asphalt. The result is akin to an inadvertently bad photoshop of a normal kidney grill where the aspect ratio was not locked. If you did this with your best selfie, your nostrils will stretch through your mouth down to the bottom of your chin. Is this bold? No, it's just plain incompetent.

my example was just to illustrate how people with confirmation bias take things out of context to support an argument.

In reality bmw knows their designs while provocative to traditionalists are going to slot in as just "aggressive" to mainstream buyers. There is much griping about design elements like the kink, grill shape, etc. But ultimately cars are fashion brands and in your face front ends are in fashion market wide.

One other personal observation... take what you will.... looking at a full dealer lot of bmws, the cars that look most out of place are the 3 and 5 and 8 series. Overlay that with YOY growth and it starts to make sense why BMW is confident enough to move in the direction they have even if it means leaving a 2001 BMW fan out in the cold in 2021

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by xlover

my example was just to illustrate how people with confirmation bias take things out of context to support an argument.

In reality bmw knows their designs while provocative to traditionalists are going to slot in as just "aggressive" to mainstream buyers. There is much griping about design elements like the kink, grill shape, etc. But ultimately cars are fashion brands and in your face front ends are in fashion market wide.

One other personal observation... take what you will.... looking at a full dealer lot of bmws, the cars that look most out of place are the 3 and 5 and 8 series. Overlay that with YOY growth and it starts to make sense why BMW is confident enough to move in the direction they have even if it means leaving a 2001 BMW fan out in the cold in 2021

Don't argue with anyone who doesn't understand the difference between "subjective" and "objective" lol. He's right, we are wrong, the designers are incompetent, etc.

He did do a much better job of framing his argument than most.

[zamboni]

Originally Posted by Maverik259

Umm no Sir. Comparing a F-150 grill to an M3 grille is laughable for a comparison. Most every market is going this direction. Lexis was first, then Audi, then Toyota, now BMW. And it's not because "Americans" somehow chose this move. I'm 1 of 2 car enthusiast in my office and not one other person in my office thinks massive grills on any of these brands is a good look. The notion that customers keep buying them which must mean that Americans like them is also wrong. If it's the only thing available then that's what's going to get purchased regardless. Americans go through cars like diapers.

Might as well install Peterbilt grille and called it for the day.

[Jcali86]

Originally Posted by Inductive

Don't argue with anyone who doesn't understand the difference between "subjective" and "objective" lol. He's right, we are wrong, the designers are incompetent, etc.

He did do a much better job of framing his argument than most.

The only people that are defending the design are the few of you and Dukec (even BMW marketing chooses the angles that cast a shadow over the grill). Fight the internet all you want - the memes won't go away.

The design is objectively bad. You can subjectively say that you like or appreciate bad design - but it doesn't make the design any less bad.[/QUOTE]

So we're using the internet to confirm our biases now? Lol ok
Let's take the latest shot from bmwm on Instagram, it has 197 comments, some good, a lot bad, let's say for arguments sake they are all negative and use that as your data point. 197 people don't like the design.
We also have another metric though; likes. This image is at 78,951 likes. (No hiding of the grilles either, they actually put the rear image as the second shot!)

So that's 78,951 who like it vs 197 who don't. We can assume a lot of people didn't do anything but I can't do much about that factor.

I couldn't actually care less about the opinions of people, 99% of whom, were never going to buy this car regardless of how it looks though. The sales numbers will speak for themselves and you'll be objectively wrong.

This is the best designed M3 to date. It's stunning, It's made every other BMW look old with the small grilles and softer, rounder design language. You can say whatever you want, but your opinion about the design is subjective, and going off your sources of data you're in the minority of people who think differently.

[Jcali86]

Originally Posted by Inductive

If we truly want to get objective about design review then agreed, let's bypass the noise from social media, because we could never substantiate whether or not they're bonafide buyers.

https://m.facebook.com/BMW.M.I.LOVE....pe=3&source=48

Instead, let's switch to peer reviews, as industry professionals might hold a more relevant perspective of each other's work. You know, the same kind of peer reviews that scientists are subjected to.

Now, let's see, how many professional car designers gave a raving review of the G2X/G8X/iX grill? Oops!

All this talk about confirmation bias - glad you guys are able to match it with a dose of denial as big as the scarlet kidney hung on the nose of the car.

It's honestly hilarious how much you need to have your bias confirmed when it's a subjective matter
I can't be bothered to respond anymore, you just change your perspective every time you're shown as wrong. That video you posted isn't an M car either, it's a different design and shape than the M4 and M3 with a completely different body kit, proportions, wings etc etc.

What are you doing here if you don't like the car? Take care, enjoy whatever old design BMW you currently own while you can, it's about to look prehistoric with the incredible looking new M3 and M4 hitting the roads

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Regarding your "the internet has spoken" comment, that is really silly. The vast majority of consumers aren't even on these forums or engaged in car talk on the internet. Using that as a predictor for sales when the general car-buying public is not even aware of the model yet is flawed.

The cars are also $69 and $72k for the base and competition models. The price difference is $2,900 and not $10,000.

You can build them however you want (mine is $90k with an individual color) but the vast majority of people will be in the $70's, just as they were with the F8x.

Strongly disagree. I think the vast majority will be in the $80s. A comp G82 with just paint is MSRPing at $76K. If you add some options you are in the $80s very quickly. Then add AWD $$.

[Casone238]

Agreed my comp built without the CF package is 80k if I drop the dravit gray for the black it's 79k so with the AWD I'm looking at like 82k. I'm sure when the full lineup of the M performance parts I'm probably going to want a front lip and probably a exhaust if have another option that keeps the standard design. Easily add the CF seats and CF exterior package and my build is at 90k

[Pantagathus]

Originally Posted by WWM3

Strongly disagree. I think the vast majority will be in the $80s. A comp G82 with just paint is MSRPing at $76K. If you add some options you are in the $80s very quickly. Then add AWD $$.

I agree, debating on builds I was keen to keep mine basically right on $80k, I felt like that wasn't going ov. I saw a comp the other day that was basically the cheapest you could get. I would have assumed it was going to be stripped out for tracking, except it had standard seats and a moonroof. Just felt like a bit of a waste. Flip side, pretty awesome you can get a 500hp car for $70k, or load it up with cool options. That flexibility is amazing

[ABenLauda]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

no, it won't affect the total sales because most of the customers actually like the car's appearance when they see it live.

Oh! Oh, I'm convinced!

[ABenLauda]

Originally Posted by Jcali86

This is the best designed M3 to date. It's stunning, It's made every other BMW look old with the small grilles and softer, rounder design language.

Could I please have some of what you're smoking?

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Jcali86

This is the best designed M3 to date. It's stunning, It's made every other BMW look old with the small grilles and softer, rounder design language. You can say whatever you want, but your opinion about the design is subjective.

Of course he can say whatever he wants. And your opinion is as subjective as his.

[Siajoon]

I don't know why there's some people that are trying to defend the front end of this car,
Particularly the grilles.. stop trying to lie and convince yourself you like them, you don't.. you just want to justify the price tag to yourself.

No I'm not being biased and no I won't be "jumping on the bandwagon" but when you look at the passed 4 generations they had a proper well balanced front end.

I know it may seem like some are beating a dead horse regarding the front end but I promise a beat up dead horse looks more appealing. Sorry I'm not sorry

[Germanauto]

This debate will go on for ages. Fact is that the G8X will probably sell just fine. Aside from the grille it offers what customers want. Yes it's big, heavy, and likely has lifeless steering; but I don't get the impression the target audience for this car cares. Most BMW "purists" have moved onto the M2, but I'm sure some will still get into the G8X due to its practicality and nicer interior. Give credit to BMW for still offering an MT and Inline 6 in this car.

I mean look at the competition. Audi is a big meh, and Mercedes C63 is going to a V4 hybrid that weighs more than an M5. Lexus RCF is forgotten, and the Giulia QF has interior quality issues, reliability issues, and no 2 door option. BMW has a good product that will lease strongly.

[Jcali86]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Of course he can say whatever he wants. And your opinion is as subjective as his.

Yes. That's the point I was making.

[antzcrashing]

Saw some G8X IRL today at BMW Sudbury (Boston, MA), I must say I like the grill. It's big but not in a bad way, fits the car. I like the slat inserts. BMW did a nice job.

[EXE46]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Saw some G8X IRL today at BMW Sudbury (Boston, MA), I must say I like the grill. It's big but not in a bad way, fits the car. I like the slat inserts. BMW did a nice job.

How was that color combo in person?

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by EXE46

How was that color combo in person?

I strongly approve of the white seats on a darker color like the green, the nice thing about them is that they are not fully white so maybe a bit less tough to keep clean. I am not a big fan of greens in general but I get why people like this green.

[Darkmann]

I don't know how this discussion ends, but one thing I am certain is that the first updated G80/82 from BMW will have a redesigned front grille.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by Darkmann

I don't know how this discussion ends, but one thing I am certain is that the first updated G80/82 from BMW will have a redesigned front grille.

Don't be so sure unless they fire Dukec. They seem steadfast with forging forward with this design language.

[Jcali86]

Originally Posted by Darkmann

I don't know how this discussion ends, but one thing I am certain is that the first updated G80/82 from BMW will have a redesigned front grille.

Hopefully they won't, would hate it if it looked as boring as the other bmw's out.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Darkmann

I don't know how this discussion ends, but one thing I am certain is that the first updated G80/82 from BMW will have a redesigned front grille.

To prove you right:

Does anyone remember the E63? No? I'm not surprised; just look at it! Remind you of any recent parallel BMW works of art?