[The Choosey begger]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

I remember people complaining that the f80 was over-styled (word labia was thrown around a lot) when that was released, I bet people will eventually come around on this as well

I remember people complaing this car was over-styled or the mustache kidney grills on the E90 is ugly etc.

Guess what? They were right

[BMthusiast]

Originally Posted by M0011

BMW went from understated to overstated and overblown. Sad.

You know at first I strongly resisted this change, but we gotta realize the change isn't permanent. Maybe the next LCI will still have the same massive grille, but after that they could easily go back to the smaller, sharper, cunning looking grilles which we love.

[The Choosey begger]

Sometimes the uglier the model the more it sells, The Bangle 7 series is a good example!

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by anglo

Sometimes the uglier the model the more it sells, The Bangle 7 series is a good example!

Government, market and economical conditions also come into play though.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Fhey

I do wonder why they manage to do it for the 3 series then, and not the 4 series. I mean, I believe you, but I wonder why they'd choose to go with the less profitable setup on the car that is (potentially) going to be selling more than the 4 series.

As I said they can do it. They decide if yes or no. And your question applies to the pedestrian rule as well, right?
There you go: why 3 does’t have a line but the 4 does? Same chassis, right?

There are many aspects involved, where is built, factory location, proximity of suppliers network, model sales, Budget per model, etc.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by manuelf

@Tracus
Nice theory ...
And how is the paint job done then? If you say, it is for cost savings, than this means at some other location the correct bumper, M paket or normal with the correct headlamp configuration (LED or not) AND the correct painting is done and then shipped in-time ... and yes - the paint done in a totally different location then magically matches the paint hue of the rest of the car done in a complete different paint shop ... wow ... magic going on here.

First if all, the bumper painting can be done a as well in a different location. And here there are few points:
- paint today can be matched even if you do not use the same brand of paint. YES, the painting has evolved that much. As long as you have the recipe, you can do it. When you are repainting the bumper at a body shop, do you think that they are painting your car as well? No, they don’t. Magic, right?
Only if the front fenders or hood is painted, then, the adjacent elements will be sandpapered and the clearcoat will be blended in to eliminate unmatch in shade. If the fenders must be painted or “blended-in”, the painter MUST know and “read” the direction the paint was applied, to make sure that all the metallic flakes that are part of the paint will”fall” when dry in the same direction with the rest of the car. The bumper can always be painted separately.
- a paint, especially metallic needs a certain way to be painted. BMW provides all the rules and the paint can be done outside as long as the direction of painting is respected ( you need to spray the paint in the same way <direction> the robots do it in the factory.
- the bumpers are black. Please have a look at the bumpers, they are always darker than the body. Why? Because they do not use a prepainting with a preparation layer that will prepare the bumper for the next color, or they do not paint two layers of paint. It will be expensive. Some companies do it (Bentley, Rolls, etc) where hand build is involved.

See the video posted before and you can see that the bumper is darker. I am pretty sure that many of you realized that the bumper have a different and darker shade.

Also,
- the whole assembly can be done in the factory as well, and either way, to install everything on a special bench is much easier than on the line,
- a factory close to the big one can do this as well.
- the bumper can be sent prepainted as well from a special unit.

This is why your Individual cost more.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Croatian test driver

Exactly, if the reason is only cost savings, then why do it on certain models and on others not? The F30 had a hood line, the successor (G20) doesn't, while the G22 is going to have one. The F10 had a hood line, but the successor (G30) doesn't. And interestingly, if I remember correctly, the SUVs (X3 and above) never had hood lines.

So, since obviously is not the pedestrian rule (the new model 3 just showed you this), and it is not price reduction and speeding up the process (hence more profits by having speed and preassembly in a less expensive factory), I would like to hear your opinion on it.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by M0011

BMW went from understated to overstated and overblown. Sad.

says the guy with a yas marina blue F8x?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

G20 is a bland car visually, although the M340i is "ok" to me. The idea of making an M3 look different to NOT just the discerning eye appeals to me greatly.

I don’t care much about the differentiation between the G20 and G80 but I do think there should be a major difference between the 3 and 4 series ( like the 5 and 8 series ). The whole car should look different interior and exterior. Getting the exterior diff. is a good start. That the M3 gets the coupes front has history so that’s also ok I guess. They should give the M5 the 8s front to give it more presence and be consistent

[IM2C]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

says the guy with a yas marina blue F8x?

Exactly. f80 design is understated enough that even YMB color does not render it over the top.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by M0011

Exactly. f80 design is understated enough that even YMB color does not render it over the top.

Plus the general public doesn't know the difference between a 330i and M3, nonetheless know what an M car is.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

Plus the general public doesn't know the difference between a 330i and M3, nonetheless know what an M car is.

Perhaps but on a YMB or a AY color with 666m wheels they can tell more often than not.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

I remember people complaining that the f80 was over-styled (word labia was thrown around a lot) when that was released, I bet people will eventually come around on this as well

Disagreed. Despite how poorly it was received at first, it was at least distinct and most importantly was immediately and easily recognizable as a BMW. Can't say that about the new 3 and the 8 pushes it as well.

[Art__Vandelay]

Originally Posted by Tracus

So, since obviously is not the pedestrian rule (the new model 3 just showed you this), and it is not price reduction and speeding up the process (hence more profits by having speed and preassembly in a less expensive factory), I would like to hear your opinion on it.

I don't know the answer, I was just questioning the explanation that cost savings are the only reason for the hood line by naming all these other models which don't have one (why don't save money there as well, especially when the predecessor already had it anyway) and the fact that all SUVs from the X3 and above never had a hood line and still don't. I'm no expert, maybe you are and maybe you are right with your explanation. I just had a few concerns with it, that's all.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Croatian test driver

I don't know the answer, I was just questioning the explanation that cost savings are the only reason for the hood line by naming all these other models which don't have one (why don't save money there as well, especially when the predecessor already had it anyway) and the fact that all SUVs from the X3 and above never had a hood line and still don't. I'm no expert, maybe you are and maybe you are right with your explanation. I just had a few concerns with it, that's all.

They are saving the money on those. SAV's have usually a lot of space and do not require a lot of work around.
Also, the new design it is specially made to make it fast and simpler. This is why now, the headlamps are between the hood/fenders and the bumper and no other element under the headlamp. The previous models were different.
Remember the First BMW X5 that had a lip under the headlamp? Those were hand installed.
Or the 2010 models that had a "in the middle of the fender" design? They were differently built as the headlamps were assembled as a whole with the front fender:

The smaller vehicles require a little bit more work and it can be done if they want to.
E46 was way more solid in terms of build. See minute 18 in the following video. The bumper required two people to work on it. Today's design requires a person only. Look at the metal structure that was used before.

BMW X2 manufacturing. Minute 22.50 you can see as well the whole assembly and rear bumper get ready as a package. They are not painted with the body.

There are variables in design as well that can provide different approaches.

The truth is they can do it but involves more labour and if the whole assembly can come done outside they will do it.
However, they do acknowledge the hood line design disaster, so the new 3 series gets a headlamp assembly as well so it can speed up the process. But, as mentioned before, this is done by hand not on the line but in a separate space.
See video bellow, minute 9:20 and you can see the G20 front headlamp/grill assembly getting manually assembled. That requires a special guy to do that only.

Design and engineering is one thing. Manufacturing logistics though, is a very important element that very few know about. Every component must be made to slide in and connect with other parts perfect but fast and without error. Between designers and engineers, there is a special team of CAD engineers that design the parts to accommodate both parties and make sure that they use minimum material but parts are technically sound and meet all technical requirements (for example enough ventilation).

At first, I thought that maybe the hood should not be longer than the internal structural elements that protect in a collision. Then, I realized that it is not the case as all bonnets are longer than those.
So the single explanation left is manufacturing.

[MuffinFlavored]

A friend of mine is *mildly* good at Photoshop/graphic design. For shits and giggles, I asked her to take a crack at making the G80 look not terrible. I agree that the kidney grille is not similar to the traditional "BMW" look, but I think if we went to Shark Tank right now asking for $1m for a 10% stake in our "save the G80 M3 front fender" business, there would be a bloodbath over the competition to invest.

['Cane]

Originally Posted by MuffinFlavored

A friend of mine is *mildly* good at Photoshop/graphic design. For shits and giggles, I asked her to take a crack at making the G80 look not terrible. I agree that the kidney grille is not similar to the traditional "BMW" look, but I think if we went to Shark Tank right now asking for $1m for a 10% stake in our "save the G80 M3 front fender" business, there would be a bloodbath over the competition to invest.

Looks like a ~2010 Dodge Charger.

[Dr.Deep]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Let me tell you that THE HOOD LINE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PEDESTRIAN RULES.
You never wonder why vehicles on the same class don't have it? Or you believe that they are not pedestrian safety aproved?

Many models, including BMW, have no hood line. There is also nothing of such sort like softer materials, as at the time of impact a plastic can do same damage to a pedestrian. It is irrelevant.
And if you take the logic into consideration then your explanation is futile as bigger cars has no hood line hence metal hoods all the way.
Also, AUDI, VW und others are under the same set of pedestrian regulations and their line-less design is as pedestrian safe and TUV approved as they can be. BMW is not more pedestrian safe than others. And peestrian rules involve a bunch of things that can be addressed in different ways and do not resume to materials only.

Stop buying this bullcrap from BMW employees that wander around this forum.
I have visited many car factories and worked in the auto industry field to know what is going on.

The hood line is because the new bumper style lowers the costs by coming installed with everything on it from other cheaper countries where many components are preinstalled. Without the hood line there is more labor involved and the profits are lower. In a bigger front bumper there is a different structural assembly (existing top structure) and everything comes pre-installed including headlamps that are time consuming if they need to be pre-installed separately. Because BMW became the Marketing company, we have a hood line. All FWD, new UKL platform, no true xDrive, hood line, etc, is all about getting more profits with less customization or less labour.

See minute 12:20 in the video:

The new 3 is hoodline free and you can see that the headlamp assembly is installed separately prior to the bumper. See minute 25:30:

It is all about time, speed, which translates in cost. There is a certain calculation and if they can be in that number and other assemblies are faster they can keep the design. If not, screw the design.
Thats why

Sure it has something to do with cost aswell, but not only...go and check out the most recent regulations and „recommendations" about car design for pedestrian safety...

You also have to take into account the structure under the front, not only what you see outside, and sure others do not have the hood line but other safety mechanisms instead, check out Volvo, they even have a „hood airbag" on some recent models, other manufacturers have features that lift the hood a few inches on impact to create a folding structure. Ask google, there are a lot of examples.

And no reason to take this as an offense, I did not say that I like the hood line, nor that I'm defending BMW for doing it, I just answered a question of a member that was wondering about it, and as you say, costs are definitely also a reason, but for sure not the only one...

Before just bashing BMW, inform yourself about how others are doing it and why they are able to not have a hood line, they have choosen an other way, why BMW did not, only they know, but they proved that they can do it without....

And to get back to the cost cutting, I don't think that they do not need to cut costs on the regular 3er, but have to do it on the M3/M4/4er. And why does the F30/F80 both have a hood line, obviously because they share the similar front bumper designs (top part of the bumper, kidneys).
And if you look closley, there is a reason that the kidneys are folding towards the bonnet on the new 3er, which obviously is not that easy to do with the kidneys they decided to use on M3/M4 and new 4er...maybe that is one of the many reasons for the regular 3er not having the hood line

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Daaan

Sure it has something to do with cost aswell, but not only...go and check out the most recent regulations and „recommendations" about car design for pedestrian safety...

You also have to take into account the structure under the front, not only what you see outside, and sure others do not have the hood line but other safety mechanisms instead, check out Volvo, they even have a „hood airbag" on some recent models, other manufacturers have features that lift the hood a few inches on impact to create a folding structure. Ask google, there are a lot of examples.

And no reason to take this as an offense, I did not say that I like the hood line, nor that I'm defending BMW for doing it, I just answered a question of a member that was wondering about it, and as you say, costs are definitely also a reason, but for sure not the only one...

Before just bashing BMW, inform yourself about how others are doing it and why they are able to not have a hood line, they have choosen an other way, why BMW did not, only they know, but they proved that they can do it without....

And to get back to the cost cutting, I don't think that they do not need to cut costs on the regular 3er, but have to do it on the M3/M4/4er. And why does the F30/F80 both have a hood line, obviously because they share the similar front bumper designs (top part of the bumper, kidneys).
And if you look closley, there is a reason that the kidneys are folding towards the bonnet on the new 3er, which obviously is not that easy to do with the kidneys they decided to use on M3/M4 and new 4er...maybe that is one of the many reasons for the regular 3er not having the hood line

- Why don't you post in here the "most recent regulations about pedestrian safety"?

- The new 3 does not have a hood line. There goes your pedestrian safety previous claim...
- The front airbag was tried by many and abandoned by all. The internal structure consists in more foam as the vehicle must offer some pedestrian protection without triggering the interior airbags. It is a very sensible issue for the manufacturers.
- The folding hood was also made but with costs involved (Jaguar)
- The 3 inches of deformable space between the hood and engine is already embraced as a general rule
- There are no "recommendations", there are regulations that need to be met
- Taller and bigger vehicles (X3/X5/X7) don't support your idea one bit as the impact point is higher; and they have no hood line either...
- The kidneys are "folding" because they improved the aerodynamics of the car, including "by design". There is a press conference in this forum somewhere, where the design chief says clearly that everything is modified to improve the aerodynamics to a new level. If you look properly, you will see that from the folding line up, the kidneys are filled with black plastic that is there to direct the air. The new hood is more pushed forward to be more "air cutting". If you will visually eliminate the kidneys from that hood line you will see that it looks awkward. So they blend engineering with design. That's all!
- Yeah, the smoother angle helps in a case with a pedestrian impact but that can be obtained with a "folded" hood as well. BMW chooses the big grill design so they blend everything accordingly.
- If the new M3 will keep the same front, it will be obviously line free. If it doesn't and has those huge grills, there must be a strong structural approach to offer the demanded rigidity requested to sustain the 5mph test and support all the required elements. That is why Audi and other's black grill has a fake or big part covered.
- You said that you "just answered a question of a member that was wondering about it". Bring in the logic and support your claim.

Originally Posted by Daaan

Before just bashing BMW, inform yourself about how others are doing it and why they are able to not have a hood line, they have choosen an other way, why BMW did not, only they know, but they proved that they can do it without....

Enlighten us please. How others are doing it?
Please feel free to bring in some material where you explain how others are doing it. I am looking forward to your reply.

Probably you should "ask Google" to understand the design better. The new 3 Series kidneys are a proper example of design that maintains aerodynamic purposes.

[Tim Peppers]

Pretty bold departure, but I kinda dig the the look.

[K4Z1u]

I tried make it to look better:

[Dr.Deep]

Originally Posted by Tracus

- Why don't you post in here the "most recent regulations about pedestrian safety"?

- The new 3 does not have a hood line. There goes your pedestrian safety previous claim...
- The front airbag was tried by many and abandoned by all. The internal structure consists in more foam as the vehicle must offer some pedestrian protection without triggering the interior airbags. It is a very sensible issue for the manufacturers.
- The folding hood was also made but with costs involved (Jaguar)
- The 3 inches of deformable space between the hood and engine is already embraced as a general rule
- There are no "recommendations", there are regulations that need to be met
- Taller and bigger vehicles (X3/X5/X7) don't support your idea one bit as the impact point is higher; and they have no hood line either...
- The kidneys are "folding" because they improved the aerodynamics of the car, including "by design". There is a press conference in this forum somewhere, where the design chief says clearly that everything is modified to improve the aerodynamics to a new level. If you look properly, you will see that from the folding line up, the kidneys are filled with black plastic that is there to direct the air. The new hood is more pushed forward to be more "air cutting". If you will visually eliminate the kidneys from that hood line you will see that it looks awkward. So they blend engineering with design. That's all!
- Yeah, the smoother angle helps in a case with a pedestrian impact but that can be obtained with a "folded" hood as well. BMW chooses the big grill design so they blend everything accordingly.
- If the new M3 will keep the same front, it will be obviously line free. If it doesn't and has those huge grills, there must be a strong structural approach to offer the demanded rigidity requested to sustain the 5mph test and support all the required elements. That is why Audi and other's black grill has a fake or big part covered.
- You said that you "just answered a question of a member that was wondering about it". Bring in the logic and support your claim.



Enlighten us please. How others are doing it?
Please feel free to bring in some material where you explain how others are doing it. I am looking forward to your reply.

Probably you should "ask Google" to understand the design better. The new 3 Series kidneys are a proper example of design that maintains aerodynamic purposes.

You said that you "just answered a question of a member that was wondering about it". Bring in the logic and support your claim.
&
There are no "recommendations", there are regulations that need to be met
&
Please feel free to bring in some material where you explain how others are doing it. I am looking forward to your reply.

>> Check out this here, very well explained what can be done and why and even a good example with a car that has also a "hood line".
And every regulations also needs to have some recommendations...or do you think they only say, here, you have to follow this regulations. Then why are there researchers working on these things? Do you think designers just can transfer regulations in their designs on their own?
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

The new 3 does not have a hood line. There goes your pedestrian safety previous claim...

>> Maybe you did not read my reply well, it has a different approach with the kidneys, and of course BMW will tell you only about aerodynamics, or have you ever heard them "advertising" pedestrian security on interviews & events??

Taller and bigger vehicles (X3/X5/X7) don't support your idea one bit as the impact point is higher; and they have no hood line either...

>> No, if you would understand where a hood line makes sense and why you could answer this by yourself..the hood line helps in most cases for children impacts, to not have the head banged again steel, but rather a softer structure, which obviously is not the case on SUVs as they are taller and the impact is straight on the bumper

Yeah, maybe some have abandoned it for now (Volvo after introducing it in 2013), but it seems that soon these things will come back..
https://lakeshoregazette.com/2020/02...lopments-2025/
https://automotive.silicones.elkem.c...strian-airbags

However, I don't need to argue with you if it is only a "cost cutting" mechanism. You can believe whatever you want, and if you think it is only because of cost cutting, then be so...but it tells everything about how well informed you are about pedestrian safety and car designs...this is a huge topic for car makers, and has much more impact on design than you probably think...