[solstice]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

Shocking it true. Seems amazing to me that their simulations would have shown a theoretical sub 7-min lap time with a -100kg +40hp G82.

That the initial target could not be met is not the same as they believed the final power to weight would be enough.

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The "cost constraints" are defined by the desired sales price (and profit margin). The sales price is established to position it in a given market segment.

Agree. They would have also figured out the threshold price to achieve sales of 1,000 units.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

Shocking it true. Seems amazing to me that their simulations would have shown a theoretical sub 7-min lap time with a -100kg +40hp G82.

It might have been the initial aim (before Porsche published the time for the 992 GT3 a year ago), but they might have eventually realized it was not achievable given the constraints.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It might have been the initial aim (before Porsche published the time for the 992 GT3 a year ago), but they might have eventually realized it was not achievable given the constraints.

Yes, the aim was obviously a better number for one or more likely both of power and weight. Because to clarify the whispers I heard was a time around the 992 GT3’s as we know it.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

Yes, the aim was obviously a better number for one or more likely both of power and weight. Because to clarify the whispers I heard was a time around the 992 GT3’s as we know it.

You seem to know something I don't

[Donsta1980]

Originally Posted by Mani59

BMW M share all you need to know about the M4 CSL presented by the awesome Chris Brow.

Damn in the most boring colors only. Crap! Lol. These black, white and grey shades are a dime a dozen

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

Yes, the aim was obviously a better number for one or more likely both of power and weight. Because to clarify the whispers I heard was a time around the 992 GT3’s as we know it.

There seems to more to it than just power-to-weight. As we discussed previously, official power ratings between NA and FI engines cannot be directly compared. For example, the M4CSL out accelerates the 992 GT3 in 100-200km/h acceleration (7.0s vs 7.4s) despite having an on paper power-to-weight disadvantage. IMO, the chassis (handling) was also a likely limiting factor.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

There seems to more to it than just power-to-weight. As we discussed previously, official power ratings between NA and FI engines cannot be directly compared. For example, the M4CSL out accelerates the 992 GT3 in 100-200km/h acceleration (7.0s vs 7.4s) despite having an on paper power-to-weight disadvantage. IMO, the chassis (handling) was also a likely limiting factor.

It is and it isn’t you for sure need better power to weight on the CSL due to the traction advantages of the GT3 but then you have the adjustable aero on top of that, not sure how much it means though if you optimally design the duck bill for the ring.

[SFBavarianArea]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

Well, the E46 CSL saved 110 kg just like this one, but starting from 1500kg (-7.5%), not 1730 kg (-6.5%) and keeping the rear seats (just like the 3.0 CSL). Maybe they did the best they could, but I can't say it's a great achievement.
It has lost much of its versatility, not yet being a true sports car

Yes but I truly believe they're holding back (Roll Cage, etc) and saving the best for last…i.e. the ultra-limited "bespoke" CSL

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

I doubt many are cross shopping those cars. Rather, those who missed a CSL allocation are probably getting themselves in line for an M3 or M4 CS, not the Porsche.

I just placed an order for a 911 GTS this week

ETA: 24 months

But if I had missed the CSL I would of definitely tried to grab an M3CS ! With cars retaining such a good value these days (who knows how long it's going to last) I see no reason not to try and buy the best model possible, the M4 I have now is great but I'd like it to be even better, buying it I already knew it would be a transition car anyways. It just so happens I'll beat the hell out of it all summer long

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by PLF69

I just placed an order for a 911 GTS this week

ETA: 24 months

But if I had missed the CSL I would of definitely tried to grab an M3CS !

Congrats. 24 months…. I wonder if it'll be a 992.2 model by then?

I spec'd my GT4 RS last week. PTS signal yellow - October build.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

Congrats. 24 months…. I wonder if it'll be a 992.2 model by then?

SA's and my guess also.. Almost hope it gets an HUD

Originally Posted by Chicane_

I spec'd my GT4 RS last week. PTS signal yellow - October build.

This one will be a keeper, as soon as they announce electric 718s it's gone sky-up ! Congrats to you.

[Chicane_]

Originally Posted by PLF69

SA's and my guess also.. Almost hope it gets an HUD

This one will be a keeper, as soon as they announce electric 718s it's gone sky-up ! Congrats to you.

Thanks. They've more or less already announced the 718 replacement will be an EV but regardless, it's probably a keeper.

There's rumours also of a 718 Spyder RS which will be more desirable for some. The GT3 RS (and GT2 RS) will also follow…. so plenty of cars to keep the GT market happy for the foreseeable future.

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

Cross shopping between an M3 and a 911 Carrera is understandable. I think CSL buyers want a BMW so plan B won't be 911 GTS. My opinion anyhow

That is exactly me. Never considered the Porsche. I already have the M4 Gts. Now the CSL. BMW all the way.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

It is and it isn’t you for sure need better power to weight on the CSL due to the traction advantages of the GT3 but then you have the adjustable aero on top of that, not sure how much it means though if you optimally design the duck bill for the ring.

The way I see it, GT3 chassis advantages:

• Lower weight
• Lower center of gravity
• Better weight distribution
• Larger tire footprint
• More sophisticated double wishbone front suspension
• Better aero

[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The way I see it, GT3 chassis advantages:

• Lower weight
• Lower center of gravity
• Better weight distribution
• Larger tire footprint
• More sophisticated double wishbone front suspension
• Better aero

All valid but can also be said about a base Carrera (except aero) vs the CSL. In the end, on the ring if you aren’t bringing a competitive power to weight ratio in your street legal car you won’t be competitive for one fastest lap. And if you are lacking in some areas a beast of an engine bringing vastly superior power to weight can make up for a lot when doing one fast lap by a factory ace.

I suspect BMW was initially aiming for around 600 hp but either ran into issues keeping it enough civilized for the street with reasonable maintenance intervals etc. Or they had hybridization in mind but abandoned it. It could also be that the launched CSL was never intended for more and that internally the hommage is part of the CSL project and that it will be competitive with the GT3, for a minor fee of course

Any how it is what it is now and further comparisons with the GT3 or speculations are rather pointless. Better to continue down the path of understanding what it is and how it compares as a street car and track day weapon.

[Hotflare]

Originally Posted by Chicane_

Congrats. 24 months…. I wonder if it'll be a 992.2 model by then?

I spec'd my GT4 RS last week. PTS signal yellow - October build.

Lucky! I skipped the g80 and held onto my f80 to dd and free up funds to find a gt4rs allocation, or scoop up a 991.2 gt3/rs when the market chills. Is it true what they say if you didnt have an allocation 2 years ago you may as well give up?

My back door option was a c8 z06 but ive learned that thats a pipedream if you didnt get your spot back in 2020

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

There seems to more to it than just power-to-weight. As we discussed previously, official power ratings between NA and FI engines cannot be directly compared. For example, the M4CSL out accelerates the 992 GT3 in 100-200km/h acceleration (7.0s vs 7.4s) despite having an on paper power-to-weight disadvantage. IMO, the chassis (handling) was also a likely limiting factor.

To index on power, there is no way the M4 CSL only makes 540 hp - maybe 540 wheel hp whereas the GT3 doesnt have the torque and makes like 480 at the wheels. Huge delta there. The base M3 makes about that at the wheels. No doubt handling is not nearly the same but that is no surprise. As I have stated, the M4 CSL is more like a Carrera GTS in terms of performance but would likely be just behind.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

To index on power, there is no way the M4 CSL only makes 540 hp - maybe 540 wheel hp whereas the GT3 doesnt have the torque and makes like 480 at the wheels. Huge delta there. The base M3 makes about that at the wheels. No doubt handling is not nearly the same but that is no surprise. As I have stated, the M4 CSL is more like a Carrera GTS in terms of performance but would likely be just behind.

It’s more complex than this. Manufacturers cannot do as they please and published “falsified” power numbers. It has to do with testing standards and how modern turbocharged engines can make more power in transient state. When tested on a brake dyno in steady state (constant rpm), the M4CSL will make little more than the rated 540hp at the crank, the same holds true for the GT3 and its 510hp. However, while accelerating, the M4CSL can make significantly more while the GT3's NA engine does not have that capability. In the same respect, the 992 GTS and GT3 are practically evenly matched acceleration wise, despite the GT3 having a significant power-to-weight advantage. This is why I said official power ratings from NA and FI cannot be directly compared.

[bmrm396]

Originally Posted by AHall

Heck every other car manufacturer should just close their doors because nothing compares to Porsche and everyone wants one. Didn't you know?
I bet if someone was looking for a 1/2 ton pickup for work and towing trailers, one of these creaming in their pants every time they see a Porsche would suggest a GT3.

This is the m4 csl thread buddy. Talking about, u guessed it, the m4 csl. Take that pickup truck comparison nonsense elsewhere.

Also, clean ur room. I can hear ur mom yelling at u that it's dirty from a mile away.

[MadBimmeRad]

^^^ this ^^^

What a cracker 🤣🤣🤣

[Hit_Apex]

Lots of nonsense here. I do think the fact that the CSL is compared to a benchmark (GT3) that is in a different league is a positive. There is nothing performance wise in the CSL that you couldn't match dumping less dollars in a base M4. From an investment standpoint there is a decent probability this car will hold its value, at the very least not depreciate as much as the base model. It's not a dollar per unit of performance proposition. There is a large market of BMW enthusiasts who (dare I say) have no interest in Porsche (or Ferrari, or Lamborghini, etc). Time will tell, but in this market smart money is looking for inflation resistant assets such as collectible art, cars etc.