[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by kgelfen360

100% agreed. People don’t understand Porsche pricing and options.

There is a reason they are the most profitable automaker.

My wife's Cayenne EHybird stickered at $117k. A new X5 50e hybrid is $87k. And my Cayenne doesn't have things that would come in that X5 like air suspension, HUD and a few other things. Direct Equivalent would have been about $121k. That's nearly 50% more!

And it's not 50% more car. But happy wife, happy life.

[Forzanerazzurri]

Originally Posted by beamlord

You aren't seriously implying that those marketing videos are substantive...

Huh? When they say "component x is made out of y material" or they, go under the car and say "x brace is tied to y", or "hey here's the piston", or "here is the reason why we went with the staggered setup" or when they literally put the car in the wind tunnel, it kind of is what it is.

If you're intelligent enough you can easily sort the facts and information from the marketing fluff. At the very least they seem to answer many of the questions we see on this board daily.

Then again, you said its not being positioned as a track car, while also also saying that their technical videos are marketing to make it look like a track car.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

First let me say that I love the BMW brand, and I’m new to forum and apologize if what I write has been beaten to death already… in 1972 my dad bought a new 2002 and I drove it a lot in the 80s as as a teenager. In 2002-05 I was a proud owner of a silver E46 M3, I worshipped that car. I loved the E92 and F80 M3/4s… but IMHO seems like starting with the average track-performing and very expensive M4 GTS something went off track with BMW M…

The 2023 M4 CSL is a badass car, fastest BMW ever on Nurburgring and comes with a lot of cool unique CSL design details. If I was a billionaire I might add one to my warehouse sized garage.

Under skin the CSL is basically a high boost M4. At same time they released the 3.0 CSL, basically same M4 car with different (more) unique design elements. M4 is $78k, M4 CSL is $140k!, 3.0 CSL is $750k?

A fully loaded 2023 Z06 w/Z07 package is $139k and better performance in every way than M4 CSL or 3.0 CSL. $140k is (nearly) 992 GT3 money. $750k is 1.5x a 765 LT.

BMW has lost their way, they are making super expensive mechanically un-competitive sports cars and basing value on creative paint jobs, interior with cool seats, logos, and M-stitching. They assume high collectibility for historic trim names and superficial ext/int design, appealing to rich posers (and collectors?) who line up for sneakers (and KITH clothing).

Meanwhile Porsche, and now even Chevy and Ford, sell very cool looking cars that are just a faster and better on a road course. In 2017 my $72k manual ZL1 1LE set a nearly identical Nurburgring lap time (with a very [...]

Everything you said is true.
But we live in a post truth society where it is irrelevant what truths you know or share.

So, this post was… to make you feel better lol?

[Montaver]

Have BMW ever been making 'track cars' though? M3 GTS and M4 GTS excluded which were very low volume halo cars. M cars have always been street cars that you can take to the track if you want to on the weekend and daily drive the rest of the time. They got a bit heavy and don't have NA engines anymore, but the good bones are still there (chassis, diff, cooling) and they replaced the NA screamers with masses of turbo power.

[SushiM3]

If anything, BMW just has a pricing strategy that captures more value for them.
If Porsche is selling 992 GT3s for 200k and they’re selling on the open market for 300, or Chevy is selling a Z06 for 140 and it’s reselling for 200, they’re obviously leaving money on the table.

Bmw knows that the m4 csl is worth around 140, and have priced it accordingly. There’s a line out the door at every dealer for people buying M3 Comp AWDs at 100k+ and the M3CS at 120-130.

The CSL 3.0 on the other hand seems mostly like a marketing exercise.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by DO444

Everything you said is true.
But we live in a post truth society where it is irrelevant what truths you know or share.

So, this post was… to make you feel better lol?

No, I had a lot of free time this weekend and finally catching up on details of these new CSL cars, and the pricing just surprised me. As a long time BMW enthusiast I wanted to see what the members here thought of this. I don't post things like this--as a non-current M owner I sounded like a troll and ranter, and I'm sorry I did that. But I learned a lot from comments so it helped me understand some things.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

No, I had a lot of free time this weekend and finally catching up on details of these new CSL cars, and the pricing just surprised me. As a long time BMW enthusiast I wanted to see what the members here thought of this. I don't post things like this—as a non-current M owner I sounded like a troll and ranter, and I'm sorry I did that. But I learned a lot from comments so it helped me understand some things.

I don’t think you’re a troll.
You have an opinion and that’s ok.
I don’t disagree with everything you wrote, but it’s just kinda the way things are now.

My comment was more to just kinda say that, it is what it is. I’ve been saying that a lot lately, but it is all I can really think of to say.

This direction the world has taken has changed a lot of things, BMW included.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by DO444

I don’t think you’re a troll.
You have an opinion and that’s ok.
I don’t disagree with everything you wrote, but it’s just kinda the way things are now.

My comment was more to just kinda say that, it is what it is. I’ve been saying that a lot lately, but it is all I can really think of to say.

This direction the world has taken has changed a lot of things, BMW included.

I appreciate your comments... so true about the recently changed world. One thing that seems related to this and maybe relevant to some members who track their cars, is that the increase over just the last 5 years in the number of ppl with $200K+ cars at the track seems to be increasing the cost of everything and changing the spirit of this sport. A couple of examples:

#1

I found a new and highly respected track prep shop in So Cal, sort of a new version of GMG, and asked them for a quote for a corner balance... they wanted $1200 for this. I called another new similar shop, they also wanted $1200. For an alignment that other excellent shops only charged maybe $300-$350 for, the difference with these shops is they cater to people with McLarens and GT3/RS

#2

In 2019 I booked a 2 day event at Laguna Seca with a garage included. At the time of my registration Speed Ventures quoted/charged $100/day for the garage. A week later they send me an email saying the garage will be $300/day!! I declined... almost the same price as the daily track fee... the supercar guys are gladly garaging. It's like a Four Seasons F-ing garage now :-)

[DO444]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

I appreciate your comments... so true about the recently changed world. One thing that seems related to this and maybe relevant to some members who track their cars, is that the increase over just the last 5 years in the number of ppl with $200K+ cars at the track seems to be increasing the cost of everything and changing the spirit of this sport. A couple of examples:

#1

I found a new and highly respected track prep shop in So Cal, sort of a new version of GMG, and asked them for a quote for a corner balance... they wanted $1200 for this. I called another new similar shop, they also wanted $1200. For an alignment that other excellent shops only charged maybe $300-$350 for, the difference with these shops is they cater to people with McLarens and GT3/RS

#2

In 2019 I booked a 2 day event at Laguna Seca with a garage included. At the time of my registration Speed Ventures quoted/charged $100/day for the garage. A week later they send me an email saying the garage will be $300/day!! I declined... almost the same price as the daily track fee... the supercar guys are gladly garaging. It's like a Four Seasons F-ing garage now :-)

I don’t track, but the spirit of everything is changing. The dollar is worth far less than it was 2-3yrs ago and it’s causing a lot trouble in so many different aspects of life, from cars to housing to food.

I think you’re experiencing the general symptom of inflation that everyone everywhere is feeling, in whatever it is they do.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by DO444

I don’t track, but the spirit of everything is changing. The dollar is worth far less than it was 2-3yrs ago and it’s causing a lot trouble in so many different aspects of life, from cars to housing to food.

I think you’re experiencing the general symptom of inflation that everyone everywhere is feeling, in whatever it is they do.

Maybe it's just me but a 3x increase in these things over 3 years does not seem like inflation, or at least the definition as I understand it.

The Laguna garage price increased 3x in 1 week :-)

[DO444]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

Maybe it's just me but a 3x increase in these things over 3 years does not seem like inflation, or at least the definition as I understand it.

The Laguna garage price increased 3x in 1 week :-)

I watched steaks at Costco go up 40% in a year.

Try asking home builders how much lumber and steel rose.

Things may have come down a bit in some areas but not by much. It really is a very poorly run government to have allowed this.

People are getting financially hammered all over and I am not saying that Laguna is not taking advantage, they may be… but they could also be under financial pressure in different ways as well due to inflation. Real estate prices have doubled in some places in as little as 2 years, that’s definitely not normal.

Maybe they just realized they could charge more now. I don’t know.

It’s not a normal inflation at all, that’s for sure. You are correct about that. Interest rates have risen so far, so fast. None of this is normal.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by DO444

Maybe they just realized they could charge more now. I don’t know.

Yes that's the answer... the problem is they always COULD HAVE charged more and sold out, but they didn't because there is a certain spirit and culture of the track. This spirit says "we don't just charge as much as we can because this is a race track for sports car enthusiasts of all levels of income and means, and we want to create an inclusive community, not an exclusive community, and make this available to as many people as possible" or something to that effect.

The land for Laguna Seca was donated by the Army to benefit all sports car enthusiasts, they didn't make this donation to benefit rich D-bags who get everything they want because they're willing and able to outspend most others. Those D-bags can go to Thermal.

[Hit_Apex]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

Those D-bags can go to Thermal.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Asymmetrick

I must agree with Hit_Apex's comment above: The rant by the OP reflects an unfortunate lack of understanding of the market, performance and pricing of these cars.

Even if you can find a 911 GT3 at MSRP, the actual price of the car would be >$70,000 above the MSRP of the M4 CSL (ie $210K for the P-car when spec-ed like the CSL with CCB, full bucket seats, etc - see attached pricing form Porsche). That's ~150% the price of the CSL! No reasonable person would compare cars with such a large price difference.

The racing/track credentials of the M4 CSL are both impressive and easy to appreciate: It beats the 911 GTS on the Nürburgring Nordschleife by ~10 secs (7:25.632 vs 7:15.677), and yet you'll have to pay $25,000 more to get the 911 GTS compared to the M4 CSL (at MSRP, which is unlikely for GTS). AFAIK, this is an awesome performance by the M4 CSL.

I do agree with the fact that C8 Z06 is an awesome track car at ~$140K. No question about that. However, I prefer the style and refinement of the CSL compared to that of the C8. For me, the CSL is the obvious choice.

I don't mean to nitpick here I am not sure this is correct. The 991.2 GTS (7 years ago) did 7:23 on the N'Ring with Sport Auto clocking the time (on a Pirelli Corsa - it would have been very close to 7:15 on a Cup2R tire or even faster being ran by facotry driver). I don't see the 992 being slower if on similar tire nor have I seen either a lap time for one be it factory or Sport Auto. Can you share that time? If not on the same tire, you also have to caveat that. The M4 CSL was done by a factory driver on a CUP2R so would be interested if they did test a 992 GTS.

[Asymmetrick]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I don't mean to nitpick here I am not sure this is correct. The 991.2 GTS (7 years ago) did 7:23 on the N'Ring with Sport Auto clocking the time (on a Pirelli Corsa - it would have been very close to 7:15 on a Cup2R tire or even faster being ran by facotry driver). I don't see the 992 being slower if on similar tire nor have I seen either a lap time for one be it factory or Sport Auto. Can you share that time? If not on the same tire, you also have to caveat that. The M4 CSL was done by a factory driver on a CUP2R so would be interested if they did test a 992 GTS.

By convention in the industry (and among car enthusiasts), official lap times are only valid with OEM specs. Porsche does not sell the 992 911 GTS with ultra-high performance tires like the Cup2R tyres. We can start discussing car performance with mods if you like, but that would be off topic.

The point I made was that the M4 CSL is ~$25,000 less expensive than the 992 911 GTS when both cars are similarly spec-ed. Even when assuming that you are correct the 992 GTS has similar performance on Cup2Rs relative to the CSL –a fact that remains to be seen– it is still substantially more expensive at MSRP than the CSL (i.e., the main issue addressed in this thread). In any case, you get far more value for your money with the CSL.

As a FYI, the price difference mentioned above dovetails nicely with published reports that Porsche profit margins on 911 models is nearly 50% – vastly more than that of other (non-exotic) sports car companies. You are not getting any value for the extra ~$25,000 you pay on a 911 GTS (relative to the CSL). It's just pure profit for Porsche.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Asymmetrick

By convention in the industry (and among car enthusiasts), official lap times are only valid with OEM specs. Porsche does not sell the 992 911 GTS with ultra-high performance tires like the Cup2R tyres. We can start discussing car performance with mods if you like, but that would be off topic.

The point I made was that the M4 CSL is ~$25,000 less expensive than the 992 911 GTS when both cars are similarly spec-ed. Even when assuming that you are correct the 992 GTS has similar performance on Cup2Rs relative to the CSL –a fact that remains to be seen– it is still substantially more expensive at MSRP than the CSL (i.e., the main issue addressed in this thread). In any case, you get far more value for your money with the CSL.

As a FYI, the price difference mentioned above dovetails nicely with published reports that Porsche profit margins on 911 models is nearly 50% – vastly more than that of other (non-exotic) sports car companies. You are not getting any value for the extra ~$25,000 you pay on a 911 GTS (relative to the CSL). It's just pure profit for Porsche.

I'm not arguing any of the points you're making as Porsche has always been more expensive. I own both and have owned about a dozen M cars and a dozen Porsches. I just have to call out that there has not been a single N'Ring lap of the 992 GTS so whatever time you're quoting is simply not for a 992 GTS and we need to ensure we dont have incorrect info being put out there.
The only reference we have is a 991.2 (7 year old generation car) that did 7:23 on a lesser tire. We should also make sure we understand the caveats of what tire compound was used regardless of whether it is factory spec or not. I could find a time the CSL posted on the PS4S and say 'wow, it's slower than X car" knowing full well that the PS4S is going to be considerably slower.
I would certainly like to see a 992 GTS time - my guess 7:12-7:14 on summer tires.

[Asymmetrick]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I'm not arguing any of the points you're making as Porsche has always been more expensive. ... I just have to call out that there has not been a single N'Ring lap of the 992 GTS so whatever time you're quoting is simply not for a 992 GTS and we need to ensure we dont have incorrect info being put out there.
The only reference we have is a 991.2 (7 year old generation car) that did 7:23 on a lesser tire.

I am quoting published figures. Lars Kern did a 7:25.632 Nurburgring lap time with the 992 911 GTS, as reported here:
https://www.carthrottle.com/reviews/...ont-i-want-one

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

We should also make sure we understand the caveats of what tire compound was used regardless of whether it is factory spec or not.

Sure, one can debate the theoretical value of every car mod under the sun. In the end, my comments merely reflect the accepted convention: official lap times are only valid with OEM spec.

If you want to discuss how mods affect the performance of the 911 GTS, Rennlist is probably the best home for this discussion. The current thread is about value for money in the context of the M brand, specifically the CS and CSL models.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

First let me say that I love the BMW brand, and I’m new to forum and apologize if what I write has been beaten to death already… in 1972 my dad bought a new 2002 and I drove it a lot in the 80s as as a teenager. In 2002-05 I was a proud owner of a silver E46 M3, I worshipped that car. I loved the E92 and F80 M3/4s… but IMHO seems like starting with the average track-performing and very expensive M4 GTS something went off track with BMW M…

The 2023 M4 CSL is a badass car, fastest BMW ever on Nurburgring and comes with a lot of cool unique CSL design details. If I was a billionaire I might add one to my warehouse sized garage.

Under skin the CSL is basically a high boost M4. At same time they released the 3.0 CSL, basically same M4 car with different (more) unique design elements. M4 is $78k, M4 CSL is $140k!, 3.0 CSL is $750k?

A fully loaded 2023 Z06 w/Z07 package is $139k and better performance in every way than M4 CSL or 3.0 CSL. $140k is (nearly) 992 GT3 money. $750k is 1.5x a 765 LT.

BMW has lost their way, they are making super expensive mechanically un-competitive sports cars and basing value on creative paint jobs, interior with cool seats, logos, and M-stitching. They assume high collectibility for historic trim names and superficial ext/int design, appealing to rich posers (and collectors?) who line up for sneakers (and KITH clothing).

Meanwhile Porsche, and now even Chevy and Ford, sell very cool looking cars that are just a faster and better on a road course. In 2017 my $72k manual ZL1 1LE set a nearly identical Nurburgring lap time (with a very capable Chevy engineer driving) as the BMW record $140k M4 CSL hyper-tech car driven by a BMW pro racer.

These state of the art 2023 BMWs are clearly positioned as track cars, what’s the goal? Ultimate “what” machine? I get it, they sell, I hear them all day and night with motor killing exhaust-pop-tunes ripping up and down Ventura blvd near my house in LA, but I don’t see them at Willow Springs or Buttonwillow where GT3 RS and McLaren are common. In case anyone's interested, one of these rare 1000 M4 CSLs is selling in LA used with 23 miles for >$2000 under KBB FPP.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...E&gclsrc=aw.ds


I hope BMW changes strategy and makes a lighter, faster, better handling, and affordable M3/M4. I’m waiting to buy one.

I think you have a bit of revisionist history going on here. The Vette and the GT3 are dedicated sports cars.. M3/4 cars are and always have been factory modified to be more sporty performance oriented versions of a street car.

It's still a relatively new and expensive track car, most cars you see at the track by those that aren't millionaires are NOT GT3s and McLarens. I've certainly been to more than a few exclusive track days dominated by exotics and my lowly M4 was one of the more affordable cars, but that is few and far between. What you are getting with an M3/4 is a way to arrive and drive to the track with all your gear easily fitting with the possibility of taking some passengers. The ride will be comfortable and roomy, and you might be a second or so off from a GT3, but the C2s and GT4s will be slower (depending on the driver, of course). FYI I was faster than the McLaren that showed up to a Time Attack I attended, I was in 1st. I've also been faster than some trailered purpose built track cars. I've also been slower than some Miatas!

If you want a lighter, faster, better handling and affordable M3/4 get a used F8X Competition and modify it. The G8X, however, is faster and better handling... just not lighter nor more affordable.

If you want a lighter, faster, better handling track car, keep the Vette and sacrifice some truck space and daily drivability.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

I appreciate your comments... so true about the recently changed world. One thing that seems related to this and maybe relevant to some members who track their cars, is that the increase over just the last 5 years in the number of ppl with $200K+ cars at the track seems to be increasing the cost of everything and changing the spirit of this sport. A couple of examples:

#1

I found a new and highly respected track prep shop in So Cal, sort of a new version of GMG, and asked them for a quote for a corner balance... they wanted $1200 for this. I called another new similar shop, they also wanted $1200. For an alignment that other excellent shops only charged maybe $300-$350 for, the difference with these shops is they cater to people with McLarens and GT3/RS

Try West End or Chewerks. They do track focused alignments and corner balancing with drive in the car. $350 iirc.

Originally Posted by SFVM3

#2

In 2019 I booked a 2 day event at Laguna Seca with a garage included. At the time of my registration Speed Ventures quoted/charged $100/day for the garage. A week later they send me an email saying the garage will be $300/day!! I declined... almost the same price as the daily track fee... the supercar guys are gladly garaging. It's like a Four Seasons F-ing garage now :-)

It was $275 in 2021, however my track fee was $650, but it was a low car count event. No traffic whatsoever. In the afternoon it was open lapping and I didn't see a car for long stretches. Many clean laps that day. I'm wondering if the org takes a cut of the garage fee, which might explain the differences in prices?

20210610 - Laguna Seca - 5695_100 by JMG, on Flickr

6N7A3410-Edit-2_100 by JMG, on Flickr

My G82 to keep it relevant:

20220430 - Spring Mountain - Shutter Click - 6N7A2646-Edit_100 by JMG, on Flickr

20220514 - SCCA TNIA - Socal Premier Photography - 5R6A1159-Edit_100 by JMG, on Flickr

Originally Posted by SFVM3

The land for Laguna Seca was donated by the Army to benefit all sports car enthusiasts, they didn't make this donation to benefit rich D-bags who get everything they want because they're willing and able to outspend most others. Those D-bags can go to Thermal.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by jmg

Try West End or Chewerks. They do track focused alignments and corner balancing with drive in the car. $350 iirc.



It was $275 in 2021, however my track fee was $650, but it was a low car count event. No traffic whatsoever. In the afternoon it was open lapping and I didn't see a car for long stretches. Many clean laps that day. I'm wondering if the org takes a cut of the garage fee, which might explain the differences in prices?

20210610 - Laguna Seca - 5695_100 by JMG, on Flickr

6N7A3410-Edit-2_100 by JMG, on Flickr

My G82 to keep it relevant:

20220430 - Spring Mountain - Shutter Click - 6N7A2646-Edit_100 by JMG, on Flickr

20220514 - SCCA TNIA - Socal Premier Photography - 5R6A1159-Edit_100 by JMG, on Flickr

$275 for a garage?! It was still $50 at ACS up until it closed this year and those are big NASCAR spaces, I think it was $25 before that. Always $100 at BW and WS. I will never pay over $150 unless I become a rich D-bag, parking lot at Laguna is ok

[jmg]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

$275 for a garage?! It was still $50 at ACS up until it closed this year and those are big NASCAR spaces, I think it was $25 before that. Always $100 at BW and WS. I will never pay over $150 unless I become a rich D-bag, parking lot at Laguna is ok

It was summer, so heat was a factor. It was my first time at Laguna and pretty much a dream come true, so I decided to splurge on the garage not only for my car, but so a bunch of us could have some shade and take pictures! We took turns taking photos of our cars in the garage.


I love the ACS garages especially if I got there before anyone else:

[calbears]

Originally Posted by jmg

It was $275 in 2021, however my track fee was $650, but it was a low car count event. No traffic whatsoever. In the afternoon it was open lapping and I didn't see a car for long stretches. Many clean laps that day. I'm wondering if the org takes a cut of the garage fee, which might explain the differences in prices?

Just rented a garage at Laguna this past Friday with Hooked on Driving. Garage fee was $175