[SFVM3]

First let me say that I love the BMW brand, and I’m new to forum and apologize if what I write has been beaten to death already… in 1972 my dad bought a new 2002 and I drove it a lot in the 80s as as a teenager. In 2002-05 I was a proud owner of a silver E46 M3, I worshipped that car. I loved the E92 and F80 M3/4s… but IMHO seems like starting with the average track-performing and very expensive M4 GTS something went off track with BMW M…

The 2023 M4 CSL is a badass car, fastest BMW ever on Nurburgring and comes with a lot of cool unique CSL design details. If I was a billionaire I might add one to my warehouse sized garage.

Under skin the CSL is basically a high boost M4. At same time they released the 3.0 CSL, basically same M4 car with different (more) unique design elements. M4 is $78k, M4 CSL is $140k!, 3.0 CSL is $750k?

A fully loaded 2023 Z06 w/Z07 package is $139k and better performance in every way than M4 CSL or 3.0 CSL. $140k is (nearly) 992 GT3 money. $750k is 1.5x a 765 LT.

BMW has lost their way, they are making super expensive mechanically un-competitive sports cars and basing value on creative paint jobs, interior with cool seats, logos, and M-stitching. They assume high collectibility for historic trim names and superficial ext/int design, appealing to rich posers (and collectors?) who line up for sneakers (and KITH clothing).

Meanwhile Porsche, and now even Chevy and Ford, sell very cool looking cars that are just a faster and better on a road course. In 2017 my $72k manual ZL1 1LE set a nearly identical Nurburgring lap time (with a very capable Chevy engineer driving) as the BMW record $140k M4 CSL hyper-tech car driven by a BMW pro racer.

These state of the art 2023 BMWs are clearly positioned as track cars, what’s the goal? Ultimate “what” machine? I get it, they sell, I hear them all day and night with motor killing exhaust-pop-tunes ripping up and down Ventura blvd near my house in LA, but I don’t see them at Willow Springs or Buttonwillow where GT3 RS and McLaren are common. In case anyone's interested, one of these rare 1000 M4 CSLs is selling in LA used with 23 miles for >$2000 under KBB FPP.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...E&gclsrc=aw.ds


I hope BMW changes strategy and makes a lighter, faster, better handling, and affordable M3/M4. I’m waiting to buy one.

[CMW33]

I opened this thinking it would be about someone turning their G8x into a track car. OP, if you want a cheap, track-capable car, a used ZLE is a good bet.

Incidentally, you will not be able to actually find a 2023 Z06 or a 992 GT3 for anything like $140K.

[Hit_Apex]

It’s an uninformed rant regarding comp prices but some truth in the vitriol regarding BMW (M) spec decisions. I mod all my cars so it is a challenge to decide on a factory “track” car versus a stripper with full host of mods. My CSL should be at Buttonwillow 9/1-9/2 to address your inquiry. Still a bit early to see this car on track by actual owners. My dad was a Chevy guy and the 1LE is compelling, but at the end of the day you’re attracted to a brand for more reasons than a spec sheet. If you ask me whether BMW can/should do better, it’s a resounding yes.

[BMWRacer523]

Yeah BMW has lost it's original motorsport ethos in a way but then again as a company they are focused on a different demographic now. So it's understandable. I still think M division puts out great cars that are very versatile but sure the g80 m3 is no e46 m3 in terms of driver engagement.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by CMW33

I opened this thinking it would be about someone turning their G8x into a track car. OP, if you want a cheap, track-capable car, a used ZLE is a good bet.

Incidentally, you will not be able to actually find a 2023 Z06 or a 992 GT3 for anything like $140K.

Sorry my bad, I very casually or ineffectively mentioned that I already have a ZLE that I've been tracking for 5 years when I said "my $72k manual ZL1 1LE" :-) I was lucky to buy it new in Nov 2018 for a nice MSRP discount before the market went nuts, and I think I'll keep it for awhile. It's the last of US cars like this and I still have a lot of room for improvement vs what it's capable of.

I agree and know that you can't get a C8 Z06 or GT3 at MSRP and maybe never will. And I assume that's what BMW hoped for with the M4 CSL and 3.0 CSL.

This is not intended as an M3/M4 jab, just a story... the only G82 I've seen on track in my group was a beautiful green one in December that ended up over, or on, the wall in chicane turn 8 at Auto Club Speedway (now closed and being demolished). Guy was ok but they had to lift it off with a crane so it was totaled. Same tricky fast turn and wall claimed and nearly totaled my friend's E92 M3. And over the years too many ZL1s, Corvettes, and GT3s. ZL1 is a widowmaker if you're not careful.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

It’s an uninformed rant regarding comp prices but some truth in the vitriol regarding BMW (M) spec decisions. I mod all my cars so it is a challenge to decide on a factory “track” car versus a stripper with full host of mods. My CSL should be at Buttonwillow 9/1-9/2 to address your inquiry. Still a bit early to see this car on track by actual owners. My dad was a Chevy guy and the 1LE is compelling, but at the end of the day you’re attracted to a brand for more reasons than a spec sheet. If you ask me whether BMW can/should do better, it’s a resounding yes.

I won't make it to BW in Sept it will still be too hot for me :-) But planning to go in mid Oct with Speed Ventures, if you're there I'll look for you and maybe you can give me a ride in the CSL and some pointers, or I can take you out in my ZLE if you haven't been in one. I bought the ZLE precisely because I didn't want to do any mods (done that a lot and I'm too old to keep up with work involved), and I love the factory track warranty.

If by "uninformed rant regarding comp prices" you mean that MSRP is meaningless, I see your point but I also think with enough patience, effort and connections it's possible to get MSRP or close.

The ZLE is my first American car, I never thought I'd buy a Camaro... I was attracted precisely for the spec sheet and videos of Randy Pobst at Laguna and this one that I still can't stop watching after 6 years...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zSIVpVMaw&t=12s

Below this is me at Auto Club Speedway in my ZLE...

[Asymmetrick]

I must agree with Hit_Apex's comment above: The rant by the OP reflects an unfortunate lack of understanding of the market, performance and pricing of these cars.

Even if you can find a 911 GT3 at MSRP, the actual price of the car would be >$70,000 above the MSRP of the M4 CSL (ie $210K for the P-car when spec-ed like the CSL with CCB, full bucket seats, etc - see attached pricing form Porsche). That's ~150% the price of the CSL! No reasonable person would compare cars with such a large price difference.

The racing/track credentials of the M4 CSL are both impressive and easy to appreciate: It beats the 911 GTS on the Nürburgring Nordschleife by ~10 secs (7:25.632 vs 7:15.677), and yet you'll have to pay $25,000 more to get the 911 GTS compared to the M4 CSL (at MSRP, which is unlikely for GTS). AFAIK, this is an awesome performance by the M4 CSL.

I do agree with the fact that C8 Z06 is an awesome track car at ~$140K. No question about that. However, I prefer the style and refinement of the CSL compared to that of the C8. For me, the CSL is the obvious choice.

[Gottagofast]

I mean, they are extremely viable track cars. I used my fully stock G82 to set a lap record around my local track, faster than a 997 GT3:

https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=2031979

Could have gone even faster with fresh tires. That time was set on partially melted P Zero's.

[beamlord]

So before this spins out of control, let's define a few fundamentals ok?
1. BMW is not positioning the M3 as a track car. They aren't even positioning the new M2 as a track car..
2. G series M cars are not good track cars. Period. Your observation is correct. There aren't many on track, simply because it's totally unviable for hardcore track use.

Now swap the order between 1. and 2. please. Where is the problem?

If I had the 3.0CSL kind of money, and wanted an amazing track car, I would order a BMW M3 GT4 for 200k, a ready to race car that is blowing all competition away in its class in races.

[beamlord]

Originally Posted by Gottagofast

I mean, they are extremely viable track cars. I used my fully stock G82 to set a lap record around my local track, faster than a 997 GT3:

https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=2031979

Could have gone even faster with fresh tires. That time was set on partially melted P Zero's.

Props to your driving skills, and yes the car is stupid fast and easy to drive and lots of fun on track.
But I wouldn't call it viable in terms of longevity in regular track use wear and tear, parts, costs - there are much more.viable alternatives.

[Needsdecaf]

The complete irony of this post is that over on Rennlist, they are all crying about how the 992 has become the exact same thing you decried the M for becoming, and yet you say you see Porsches at the track all them time. It's too big. Too round. The screens are a distraction. The shifter is not manly enough. Never mind that it's more capable than ever, it's just not hard-core enough, they cry.

It's not a BMW thing. It's a modern car thing. That ZL1 1LE you track? Yeah, it's being replaced by an Electric SUV. Yes, the Camaro replacement will basically be an EV Blazer.

In the day of increased pedestrian crash standards, decreased CO2 output, increased MPG requirements, more computers, more consumer expectations (I want it to drive me to the track by itself with the massage seats on and THEN track it), well, none of this is surprising. Yeah, a G8X isn't as raw as the older cars but those were never as good on track as a 911 either. Brakes were crap, cooling was sub-par and you needed a lot of mods to keep up. You know, like today.

Meanwhile you cry about the CSL and the 3.0 but Porsche does the same thing with their cars. The Sport Classic is a GTS with the turbo engine and suspension and it is the MOST expensive 911 sold...more than a GT3 RS. They sell badge and sticker editions all the time like this "America" thing they are selling now with naff white wheels. And that Motorsports edition GTS they sold back in the 991 days where they wanted $200,000 for a car that retail for about 135,000.

You may have read in some other posts that I'm selling my 997 Turbo S to switch to a G8 X Dr. competition. That may seem pretty backwards to a lot of people but to be honest with you the G8 has got a lot of bases covered and it's a damn good car for what it is. it's only a few mods away from being pretty track capable and yet still taking your family to dinner. I can't really do that with my 911 which is why it's going away.

Rose colored glasses are a hell of a thing sometimes.

I've been around BMWs since the mid-80s. I remember sitting in wide world of cars in Spring Valley New York very close to where I grew up. My dad was looking at E 28 five series and just sitting in the show room and passing the buttons on the trip, computer and smelling the leather , you knew that BMWs were something special. We often went back and admired the six series and then eight series. Those mid 80s to early 90s BMWs were peak BMW in terms of steering field but to be honest they are solrely out Performed by the modern cars.

I wish they all still have the same suspension ride and steering feel as well. But just like a 992 doesn't feel like an air cooled SC, time marches on.

[wtwo3]

Lol at $140k being nearly 992 GT3 money

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Lol at $140k being nearly 992 GT3 money

991.1 GT3's have barely returned to this level.

[Forzanerazzurri]

Originally Posted by beamlord

So before this spins out of control, let's define a few fundamentals ok?
1. BMW is not positioning the M3 as a track car. They aren't even positioning the new M2 as a track car..
2. G series M cars are not good track cars. Period. Your observation is correct. There aren't many on track, simply because it's totally unviable for hardcore track use.

Now swap the order between 1. and 2. please. Where is the problem?

If I had the 3.0CSL kind of money, and wanted an amazing track car, I would order a BMW M3 GT4 for 200k, a ready to race car that is blowing all competition away in its class in races.

Alot of the engineering decisions that BMW made with the G80 were directly related to it being suitable for the track. They have to strike a balance between price and comfort vs full out track specs obviously but they continually do a world class job at it. I would encourage you to go watch the series of videos on the BMW M YouTube channel which goes into depth on the engineering behind the car.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by beamlord

So before this spins out of control, let's define a few fundamentals ok?
1. BMW is not positioning the M3 as a track car. They aren't even positioning the new M2 as a track car..
2. G series M cars are not good track cars. Period. Your observation is correct. There aren't many on track, simply because it's totally unviable for hardcore track use.

Now swap the order between 1. and 2. please. Where is the problem?

If I had the 3.0CSL kind of money, and wanted an amazing track car, I would order a BMW M3 GT4 for 200k, a ready to race car that is blowing all competition away in its class in races.

I was trying to focus more on the M4 CSL and 3.0 CSL and not the standard M3/M4 which is reasonably priced and gives you a lot for the money. I was not clear enough...

I agree the M2/M3/M4 are not "track cars" they are high performance cars that can be used very effectively and enjoyably on track on weekends.

I'm not a troll, if I sound like one I apologize. I won't be back here criticizing BMW or the M3/M4. I was finally catching up on these new CSLs this weekend and the pricing surprised me, that's it... the nearly 2 x M4 price of the M4 CSL seems like a lot for a special edition track package, and the price of the 3.0 CSL is... much higher.

One small piece of advice for the M3/M4 ppl here who do track their cars, don't use the way-overpriced heat-cycle-weak Pilot Sport Cup 2s, R or otherwise. GM also screwed the new Z06 owners on this one to make $$ with Michelin.

IMO the Goodyear F1 Supercar 3R is the best DOT track tire in the world right now, better than Hoosier A7/R7. The 3R is much cheaper than PSC2 or PZero Trofeo R (especially if you know where to buy them, not TR). It has better grip, turning and braking characteristics, and keeps giving fast laps until it cords. The Porsche GT and McLaren guys I know are all using them, for reference my coach did a 1:27 on 3Rs at Laguna in a 765 LT. They were designed by GM and Goodyear specifically for the goals of the (front) heavy ZL1 1LE, so I bet they'll work well for the similar weight M3/M4.

You may have to get extra track wheels to do this, but that's usually a good idea anyway.

[Forzanerazzurri]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

I was trying to focus more on the M4 CSL and 3.0 CSL and not the standard M3/M4 which is reasonably priced and gives you a lot for the money. I was not clear enough...

I agree the M2/M3/M4 are not "track cars" they are high performance cars that can be used very effectively and enjoyably on track on weekends.

I'm not a troll, if I sound like one I apologize. I won't be back here criticizing BMW or the M3/M4. I was finally catching up on these new CSLs this weekend and the pricing surprised me, that's it... the nearly 2 x M4 price of the M4 CSL seems like a lot for a special edition track package, and the price of the 3.0 CSL is... much higher.

One small piece of advice for the M3/M4 ppl here who do track their cars, don't use the way-overpriced heat-cycle-weak Pilot Sport Cup 2s, R or otherwise. GM also screwed the new Z06 owners on this one to make $$ with Michelin.

IMO the Goodyear F1 Supercar 3R is the best DOT track tire in the world right now, better than Hoosier A7/R7. The 3R is much cheaper than PSC2 or PZero Trofeo R (especially if you know where to buy them, not TR). It has better grip, turning and braking characteristics, and keeps giving fast laps until it cords. The Porsche GT and McLaren guys I know are all using them, for reference my coach did a 1:27 on 3Rs at Laguna in a 765 LT. They were designed by GM and Goodyear specifically for the goals of the (front) heavy ZL1 1LE, so I bet they'll work well for the similar weight M3/M4.

You may have to get extra track wheels to do this, but that's usually a good idea anyway.

Bro, this forum is literally a Michelin jerk fest. You have no idea what you've just done...

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by Forzanerazzurri

Bro, this forum is literally a Michelin jerk fest. You have no idea what you've just done...

Ok thanks for the warning, nevermind PSC2 are fine maybe they work better on G80/82. F1 SC 3R ar pretty good too, give them a try if you get a chance... peace out :-)

[beamlord]

Originally Posted by Forzanerazzurri

Alot of the engineering decisions that BMW made with the G80 were directly related to it being suitable for the track. They have to strike a balance between price and comfort vs full out track specs obviously but they continually do a world class job at it. I would encourage you to go watch the series of videos on the BMW M YouTube channel which goes into depth on the engineering behind the car.

You aren't seriously implying that those marketing videos are substantive...

[G-Breazy]

Originally Posted by Forzanerazzurri

Bro, this forum is literally a Michelin jerk fest. You have no idea what you've just done...

bro dead hahaha it’s so true

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Forzanerazzurri

Bro, this forum is literally a Michelin jerk fest. You have no idea what you've just done...

Hahah.

He's not wrong about Cup2's and track though. Check the GT3 forums on Rennlist. They are very peaky.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

sed very effectively and enjoyably on track on weekends.

I'm not a troll, if I sound like one I apologize. I won't be back here criticizing BMW or the M3/M4. I was finally catching up on these new CSLs this weekend and the pricing surprised me, that's it... the nearly 2 x M4 price of the M4 CSL seems like a lot for a special edition track package, and the price of the 3.0 CSL is... much higher.

The 3.0 CSL is definitely a nostalgia trip / BMW marketing exercise. it's not intended to be a serious performance car.

The CSL is not really a "twice the price". You need to compare it to a loaded up M4 Comp and then look at the value of the other items you get like carbon hood and trunk, the full race buckets, etc. If you add those parts up that you'd need to add onto an M4 to make it equivalent, you're over the price of the M4 Comp.

I personally would not start with an M4 if I wanted to do a track car, but I WOULD view an M4 as a do it all car that you can drive around with people and occasionally take to the track without embarrassing yourself. Get a set of track wheels, tires and brake pads and some racing fluid and you can enjoy yourself. But the G8X is simply too big to be a dedicated track rat.

[kgelfen360]

Originally Posted by Asymmetrick

I must agree with Hit_Apex's comment above: The rant by the OP reflects an unfortunate lack of understanding of the market, performance and pricing of these cars.

Even if you can find a 911 GT3 at MSRP, the actual price of the car would be >$70,000 above the MSRP of the M4 CSL (ie $210K for the P-car when spec-ed like the CSL with CCB, full bucket seats, etc - see attached pricing form Porsche). That's ~150% the price of the CSL! No reasonable person would compare cars with such a large price difference.

The racing/track credentials of the M4 CSL are both impressive and easy to appreciate: It beats the 911 GTS on the Nürburgring Nordschleife by ~10 secs (7:25.632 vs 7:15.677), and yet you'll have to pay $25,000 more to get the 911 GTS compared to the M4 CSL (at MSRP, which is unlikely for GTS). AFAIK, this is an awesome performance by the M4 CSL.

I do agree with the fact that C8 Z06 is an awesome track car at ~$140K. No question about that. However, I prefer the style and refinement of the CSL compared to that of the C8. For me, the CSL is the obvious choice.

100% agreed. People don’t understand Porsche pricing and options.