[KoenG]

Originally Posted by av.7447

Oh please.... You are saying it like there are only geniuses working in bmw product management and all decisions they make are the only correct ones... there are plenty of reasons for base M3/M4 to be detuned and we can speculate on them all we want. I can also ask, why, when a manual transmission can handle higher redline they didn’t raise the rev limiter for us on the base car... why why why, doesn’t make sense at all... are they stupid? 🤪

At least, when they would have allowed the torque to be higher in order to match the torque to weight ratio of the F80, we wouldn't have this discussion about deficit in the in gear accelerations. So when there is no mechanical constraint in the driveline, yeah, maybe the're a bit stupid?

[av.7447]

Originally Posted by KoenG

At least, when they would have allowed the torque to be higher in order to match the torque to weight ratio of the F80, we wouldn't have this discussion about deficit in the in gear accelerations. So when there is no mechanical constraint in the driveline, yeah, maybe the're a bit stupid?

Maybe they don’t want a manual to be as fast or faster than the competition slush box .... By the way, the new Cadillac CT4-V blackwing (new confusing shit), claiming 3.8 seconds 0-60 with an automatic... Apparently it has 470hp and 600nm and I cant wait to see what it will do with a manual...

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by av.7447

Maybe they don’t want a manual to be as fast or faster than the competition slush box .... By the way, the new Cadillac CT4-V blackwing (new confusing shit), claiming 3.8 seconds 0-60 with an automatic... Apparently it has 470hp and 600nm and I cant wait to see what it will do with a manual...

Hmmmm... I don't believe that a manual is capable to be faster these days, not compared to a ZF8HP76 which is a miracle slush box, no less. I don't understand where you believe that a manual is able to get more output to the wheels, since the terraflop processor in the ZF is continuously aware of the best gear to get maximum acceleration considering the conditions and the sensors incurring pitch/yaw/roll and accelerations logitudinal/transversal and includes steering input, throttle input. I don't see any driver, even when his name is Vettel or Raikonnen, trump that intelligence.

I agree when you say, MT feels more connected and provides more control and is more fun to the ones that search for this feeling. Of course it does!!!

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Why would they detune the manual from 650Nm to 550Nm then? Why all this effort to produce an equally priced MT version with a detuned engine....? Doens't make sense at all, would be a utterly dumb decision of product mngt.

Maybe they just wanted to create two cars with two different characters to make them distinguishable and justify the price gap, now you can really feel the difference between the base and the Competition model (beyond the gearbox).

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

Maybe they just wanted to create two cars with two different characters to make them distinguishable and justify the price gap, now you can really feel the difference between the base and the Competition model (beyond the gearbox).

I've heard in a review that the Base is tuned to feel more like a N/A engine and as much more linear pull that does not plateau near redline.

[Ilyam5]

Here are the numbers I was able to find. Seems like quite a gap

Auto sport mag

Base (manual)

Measured 1675 Kg,

4.3s 0-100 km/hand

14.1s 0-200 km/h


https://www.carscoops.com/2021/04/20...fficial-quote/

M3 Competition

1764.474 kg

The 0 to 100 km/h (0-62 mph) at 3.77 seconds.

Then it managed to run the quarter-mile in a hair under 11 and a half seconds, and hit the

200 km/h (124 mph) mark in 11.86 seconds.

[Ilyam5]

Good video to contribute to the subject at hand.
Sad - lack of development in manual world and more R&D in auto.

After being a manual enthusiast for last 30+ years - i have to agree - automatics feel and perform in a different league from even 10 years ago, where manuals have not progressed.

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by PLF69

I've heard in a review that the Base is tuned to feel more like a N/A engine and as much more linear pull that does not plateau near redline.

This is a turbo that feel like a N/A.

[Wheelwright]

Originally Posted by Ilyam5

Good video to contribute to the subject at hand.
Sad - lack of development in manual world and more R&D in auto.

After being a manual enthusiast for last 30+ years - i have to agree - automatics feel and perform in a different league from even 10 years ago, where manuals have not progressed.

I watched this video too, and he said that manuals not only not progressed, but most of they regressed except for Miata, some Porsches and GT 350/Mach 1. He didn't mention the new M3/M4, maybe I will ask him in the comments.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

This is a turbo that feel like a N/A.

What is it from ?

[Azeka1]

In a straight line, of course the Auto / Competition with extra HP is going to be slightly faster. Reality is both are pretty darn quick though. However, no generation of the M3, including this one, was ever designed to be the leader in a drag race.

Around a track, unless you're a racer (pro/amateur) or at the highest levels of HPDE, you will not be able to take advantage of the AT and extra power offered over the manual. Even with that, I can't see anything more than a 1 second difference on a ~1:30 lap-time course.

Since we are talking about a street car here, buy what is more enjoyable for you. Sure, Autos have come a long way, and if you don't appreciate the art of driving a Manual, go for it. For me, I'll give up a smidge of lap time at a track day for the more exciting experience a manual offers (on and off track).

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by PLF69

What is it from ?

Is that important?

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

Is that important?

A Porsche a guess..

Why post it if we can't compare ?

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by PLF69

A Porsche a guess..

Why post it if we can't compare ?

https://media.fastestlaps.com/ooz5dfeeil5t.jpg

[opielm]

Originally Posted by Ilyam5

Good video to contribute to the subject at hand.

Thanks. Something he said made me think about the Base "de-tune". Maybe it is more about emission controls. With an AT you can control more of the variables to optimize.

Looking forward to the threads after MT owners flash their ECU.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by opielm

Thanks. Something he said made me think about the Base "de-tune". Maybe it is more about emission controls. With an AT you can control more of the variables to optimize.

Looking forward to the threads after MT owners flash their ECU.

Giving a haircut from 650Nm to 550Nm is probably not improving fuel efficiency. What he said is that two drivers driving the same MT car will have a very different consumption an emission even at equal acceleration and speed. When you put these two in the same AT, their consumption will be very near.

The torque cut in the MT is pretty certain to reduce the risk for severe transmission damage and longetivity. The F10 M5 also had a MT version, but M had to detune the engine in 1st and 2nd gear for the same reasons.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by PLF69

I've heard in a review that the Base is tuned to feel more like a N/A engine and as much more linear pull that does not plateau near redline.

This is precisely how it feels. Redline shifts are incredibly rewarding in this car. Add on the combination of the sound and the shift lights ... honestly, they killed it. It’s awesome.

[PeregrineFalcon]

9,23 sec. from the 100-200 km/h in 3rd gear!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Ilyam5

Now that people had time to test drive some cars – has anyone driven both back to back?
I drove a manual but did not have a chance to drive an auto. Lack of Low end torque is really noticeable in a manual. You have to drive it like you stole it to get performance out of the car at regular street speeds. Car still shines in braking and cornering where I think they are equal but acceleration is the question.
Most tests do one or the other with majority concentrating on competition model, but these factors will really play a role in track time and straight line:
- 100N-m (74lb-ft) deficit in torque
- 30Hp deficit in power
- Taller gears in manual
- Fewer gears in manual
- Slower shifting in manual

Fixed that for you

[Ilyam5]

Originally Posted by PeregrineFalcon

9,23 sec. from the 100-200 km/h in 3rd gear!

But Auto comp model does it in 8.09.

So the question still stands - how will it translate to the road course. Would be nice to see ring times for all 3 variants with same driver, same tires.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Ilyam5

But Auto comp model does it in 8.09.

So the question still stands - how will it translate to the road course. Would be nice to see ring times for all 3 variants with same driver, same tires.

Some G8XC were clocked as low a 7.8 for the 100-200km/h...

[02M3ForMe]

Is there any indication that BMW may set an EOP for the base 6MT meaningfully earlier than the rest of the range?