[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I'd point out that BMW NA has an extremely solid track record of following through on *not* doing stuff that say they are *not* going to do, especially when enthusiasts want them to do it.

As evidence, I give you every single current touring model not sold in the US and every single former touring model formerly not sold in the US. They said they would not sell them, and sure enough, they did not sell them. I believe they are 100% on the mark for that no? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, like I say in my earlier post, if you believe an M3 is possible, you either believe a 3 Series Touring is coming along with it, or you believe this will be the first ever wagon form factor (to my knowledge, as I say - someone show me a counter-example, I'd love to be made aware of one) to sport *only* a high performance variant.

If you told me it is guaranteed that BMW will either sell a hot pink i3 or an M3 Touring in the US, at this point, I'd be inclined to bet on the hot pink i3.

Just trying to be a realist.

Agree. BMW invested a lot of money at its Greer SC plant to build SUV's. No reason to attempt to under cut that.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

The G81 would cannibalize higher profit margin X3M/X4M sales.

That's why I believe this vehicle will be limited production in the US, if it's produced at all. I just wonder if BMW could be successful with an M3 touring even if it were priced HIGHER than an X3M/X4M. Maybe.

[bmwm3car]

Sign me up if its true!!!!

[JoeyBananaz18]

Originally Posted by Law

Based on preliminary information available at this time, it's unlikely the M3 Touring will be brought Stateside.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ouring-teaser/

you know, i think this whole notion of north americans no buying wagons is BS. I mean think about it, if you don't offer any wagons, how can we buy them?

I constantly see new MY E-class tourings and have been seeing them for decades. Why hasn't Mercedes pulled it from NA offerings? In fact, if no one buys wagons, why are they adding the higher riding All-terrain variant?

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by DeeKay

Well all normal 3-Touring variants are less expensive than the X3 here in Europe - so if it makes perfect sense for all base models, why not the M?

Your logic does make sense, but the capitalist salesperson I am wonders how high BMW could price an M3 Touring before supply exceeded demand.

[spuntyb]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

You must have misunderstood me. I am not here to criticize wagons or to tell you not to buy one. I am merely stating what everyone already knows, namely that wagons don't sell well in America. Therefore, I doubt BMW will even attempt to bring this wagon to US. They didn't bring the great looking and relatively affordable M340i wagon to US, why should they bring this one? Further, that M3 wagon would likely directly compete with the X3M compact performance SUV that was introduced just last year.

The CTS-V sold great (I don't think we need to re-hash those numbers). The AMG wagon sells just fine. The first V60 Polestar *sold out* here sight unseen. Performance wagons don't sell in huge numbers, but they don't need to in order to make sense to manufacturers or to buyers. People are passionate about them. They're rare and special, and people love them. Selling them breeds loyalty. That's the point.

It's anybody's guess the timing of not bringing the G21 here, but that it wouldn't sell well is conjecture.

For folks who don't need or want a top heavy CUV, a G81 would be fantastic. The X3M rocks, but for a lot of us, a wagon would be even better.

The only problem will be those goddamned grilles

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier

That's why I believe this vehicle will be limited production in the US, if it's produced at all. I just wonder if BMW could be successful with an M3 touring even if it were priced HIGHER than an X3M/X4M. Maybe.

It would be a repeat of the overpriced F80 CS and F82 CS that required flagship money to move cars sitting on dealership lots. G81 is a niche market, forum posters do not realize that total BMW M sales is minuscule in the overall total BMW AG and BMW NA sales numbers.

[deli333]

imagine that big grill in chrome hahaha. i have seen some 1 series with thst big grill( way smaller than M series) and it was seriously ugly, pure uglyness

[Nordkeyz73]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

Each new model variation that BMW AG sells in the US market costs around $1,000,000 for DOT safety training. As a 3 series N55 offered with a 6MT and 8AT is two variations, $2,000,000 DOT test costs. Not worth the cost to import to the states.

I get this argument, but only to a point. Assuming an MSRP of $75k, and that they ONLY sell 14 M3 wagons total, they've made a profit. I think the federalizations can be done rather quickly.

Edit: And BMW CAN sell more than 14 in the US quite easily.

[alistairk]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I'd point out that BMW NA has an extremely solid track record of following through on *not* doing stuff that say they are *not* going to do, especially when enthusiasts want them to do it.

As evidence, I give you every single current touring model not sold in the US and every single former touring model formerly not sold in the US. They said they would not sell them, and sure enough, they did not sell them. I believe they are 100% on the mark for that no? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, like I say in my earlier post, if you believe an M3 is possible, you either believe a 3 Series Touring is coming along with it, or you believe this will be the first ever wagon form factor (to my knowledge, as I say - someone show me a counter-example, I'd love to be made aware of one) to sport *only* a high performance variant.

If you told me it is guaranteed that BMW will either sell a hot pink i3 or an M3 Touring in the US, at this point, I'd be inclined to bet on the hot pink i3.

Just trying to be a realist.

Totally agree with everything you said, but near as I could find, US makes up 33% of the market for M cars. That's a huge percentage of your market to ignore.

Additionally, Europe already has the Alpina B3 Touring if that's the only market they're going after, so I'm cautiously optimistic on this especially given, as someone else pointed out, the nature of the announcement.

If you're targeting a Europe only demographic, I don't know that "mic drop" is the phrase you go for, but that last bit is admittedly flimsy.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Nordkeyz73

I get this argument, but only to a point. Assuming an MSRP of $75k, and that they ONLY sell 14 M3 wagons total, they've made a profit. I think the federalizations can be done rather quickly.

The cost is much higher than that. @ 250 units, the amortization cost per unit just for certification (not including costs for component development) is over $35000.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18

you know, i think this whole notion of north americans no buying wagons is BS. I mean think about it, if you don't offer any wagons, how can we buy them?

This is rarely an accurate description of market conditions surrounding the viability of a certain model or model feature in a specific region.

When it comes to corporate product planning and building a business case, there is the notion of growth and decline. Wagons in the US have been in a state of decline for years. Could you flood the dealership lots with them and fight the curve? Sure, you could probably make a small dent, but you are not going to face down and overcome the inevitable - that the demand for these vehicles is decreasing, and that without high margins (or for that matter, even with high margins), the risk for non-profitability is high.

Incidentally, the same thing is occurring now for coupes (did you know that the FWD coupe is now officially dead in the US? https://www.thedrive.com/news/34985/...is-now-extinct) and even FWD sedans are headed that way. Other form factors that are quickly dying in the US are the hatchback and the sub-compact passenger car.

I constantly see new MY E-class tourings and have been seeing them for decades. Why hasn't Mercedes pulled it from NA offerings? In fact, if no one buys wagons, why are they adding the higher riding All-terrain variant?

Yes, niches do exist of course.

You didn't point out - but I will - that both Audi and Jaguar have added entries in the E Class Estate's segment, so clearly there is profit to be had. Volvo also competes in that segment. However, in this class margins are high - much higher than in the "entry level" luxury class occupied by the 3 Series and its competitors. Only Volvo has a wagon in the US in this lower cost segment now (V60), and for them there is some added value in doing so in that it is an iconic model. Even then, one wonders how long it and the S60 will last (like everyone else, Volvo sells more SUVs than passenger cars now) given that the S60 has consistently been one of the most discounted models in the US (according to Autoblog).

[535i MSport]

Originally Posted by floating.spirit

Goddamit! Who wants to buy my X3MC I haven't taken delivery of yet?

Hahahah

[del82]

Originally Posted by Neptune7

Would the X3MC and M3 wagon coexist in the same market?

Yeah good point. Will be interesting to find out.

I think in the UK a M3 Touring will outsell the X3M which isn't a big seller but room for both.

M3 will satisfy the hardcore

M3 Touring for those that want M3 power but have compromises but don't want a SUV

X3M for those who feel they need a SUV for whatever reason

I think if Audi can make it work, then BMW can as well and it's not as if the new RS4 is a perfect car.

Let's hope this sees the light of day. I think it'll shows us what the G20/G21 LCI will look like.

[mbanck]

But... the G81 won't have a Hofmeister Kink...

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by Nordkeyz73

I get this argument, but only to a point. Assuming an MSRP of $75k, and that they ONLY sell 14 M3 wagons total, they've made a profit. I think the federalizations can be done rather quickly.

$1,000,000 is fixed cost, as BMW AG recently cut is profit margin forecast to between zero and 3%. In 2018 it was 7.2% and 2019 4.9%. Let's say at 7% profit margin is $5,250 per unit. To recoup $1,000,000 in DOT testing expense would require over 190 units sold roughly to break even in a pre-COVID market conditions.

[cfm56d7b]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

I still want an M4 Gran Coupe

So do I. :-) It's a small world.

Since M4 GC is nowhere to be found, I am exploring X4MC.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yes, niches do exist of course.

You didn't point out - but I will - that both Audi and Jaguar have added entries in the E Class Estate's segment, so clearly there is profit to be had. Volvo also competes in that segment. However, in this class margins are high - much higher than in the "entry level" luxury class occupied by the 3 Series and its competitors. Only Volvo has a wagon in the US in this lower cost segment now (V60), and for them there is some added value in doing so in that it is an iconic model. Even then, one wonders how long it and the S60 will last (like everyone else, Volvo sells more SUVs than passenger cars now) given that the S60 has consistently been one of the most discounted models in the US (according to Autoblog).

MB might pull the Estate from the US after MY2021. The market success or failure of the E450 All-Terrain will determine whether it and E63S continue.

[Nordkeyz73]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

$1,000,000 is fixed cost, as BMW AG recently cut is profit margin forecast to between zero and 3%. In 2018 it was 7.2% and 2019 4.9%. Let's say at 7% profit margin is $5,250 per unit. To recoup $1,000,000 in DOT testing expense would require over 190 units sold roughly to break even in a pre-COVID market conditions.

True, and more of a challenge this year for sure. Here's to hoping though

[M3GymNut]

I don't know what the craze is all about. I may get death threats for this but the wagons are ugly and even worse if you get it as a performance vehicle.

[StevenDS85]

Another (Dutch) source that also confirms it will come to the US as well as M3 Sports Wagon, in the EU it will be called M3 Touring.

https://www.autoblog.nl/nieuws/bmw-m...-update-168105

[GeorgeA]

Beautiful, they have to bring it the US. We have the E63S and RS6 wagons, we just need this M3 to complete the set.