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      04-16-2021, 10:18 AM   #45
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Here is my impression of DCT vs ZF8:

At lower RPM's (under ~4500 or so) both gearboxes feel pretty similar in shift speed and feel.
The difference I perceived is noticeable at high RPM where the G80 feels like it ramps down engine torque prior to and after the shift to save the gearbox. The DCT has no torque ramp at the shift so it feels faster and more dramatic.

The actual shift time change between gears is probably very close between the two gearboxes if you just measure the time at 0 torque but the entire shift process the ZF executes (where it ramps down torque, shifts, ramps up torque) is longer than DCT.
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      04-16-2021, 10:36 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Here is my impression of DCT vs ZF8:

At lower RPM's (under ~4500 or so) both gearboxes feel pretty similar in shift speed and feel.
The difference I perceived is noticeable at high RPM where the G80 feels like it ramps down engine torque prior to and after the shift to save the gearbox. The DCT has no torque ramp at the shift so it feels faster and more dramatic.

The actual shift time change between gears is probably very close between the two gearboxes if you just measure the time at 0 torque but the entire shift process the ZF executes (where it ramps down torque, shifts, ramps up torque) is longer than DCT.
This is exactly the feeling I got between my M235i ZF8 and DCT M2 but was probably more pronounced because the tuning was not as good as the G80 ZF.
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      04-16-2021, 11:19 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
The difference I perceived is noticeable at high RPM where the G80 feels like it ramps down engine torque prior to and after the shift to save the gearbox. The DCT has no torque ramp at the shift so it feels faster and more dramatic.
Yup this hits the nail on the head. Put putting around casually there really isn't a difference in total shift speed between the two, other than DCT still sounds and feels like a clutch clamping. The magic happens at high rpm / heavy load where the DCT is effectively powershifting with 0 torque drop off whereas the ZF has to ramp down torque due to its planetary design & clutch packs. That's the difference and that's the reason why a ZF (or other current auto) can never emulate MDCT shifts & "immediacy" no matter what the tuning. It just is what it is, there's really nothing to argue about here. Mechanically, DCT can't do the auto thing as well as ZF, and ZF can't do the gear-slamming thing as well as DCT. But they both do a decent impression of each other.

Really though, we're talking about relatively fine margins here and it's not gonna matter to most people who buy this thing. Could G8X have been better with a DCT? Maybe, but ZF fits what G8X (and the rest of the current BMW offering) is trying to achieve so I'm inclined to believe that DCT wouldn't jive as well with the total package.
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      04-16-2021, 11:59 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Here is my impression of DCT vs ZF8:

At lower RPM's (under ~4500 or so) both gearboxes feel pretty similar in shift speed and feel.
The difference I perceived is noticeable at high RPM where the G80 feels like it ramps down engine torque prior to and after the shift to save the gearbox. The DCT has no torque ramp at the shift so it feels faster and more dramatic.

The actual shift time change between gears is probably very close between the two gearboxes if you just measure the time at 0 torque but the entire shift process the ZF executes (where it ramps down torque, shifts, ramps up torque) is longer than DCT.
Isn't the DCT's principle having the next gear already ramped up but not engaged until paddle click ?
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      04-16-2021, 12:26 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaalrasha View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Here is my impression of DCT vs ZF8:

At lower RPM's (under ~4500 or so) both gearboxes feel pretty similar in shift speed and feel.
The difference I perceived is noticeable at high RPM where the G80 feels like it ramps down engine torque prior to and after the shift to save the gearbox. The DCT has no torque ramp at the shift so it feels faster and more dramatic.

The actual shift time change between gears is probably very close between the two gearboxes if you just measure the time at 0 torque but the entire shift process the ZF executes (where it ramps down torque, shifts, ramps up torque) is longer than DCT.
Isn't the DCT's principle having the next gear already ramped up but not engaged until paddle click ?
Yes but there is still a small amount of time where you have 0 torque. It's milliseconds but it is there.

I think bmw quoted shift times are like 80ms DCt and 120ms ZF but either way it's very very small amount of time for both transmissions.
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      04-16-2021, 02:00 PM   #50
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Since this thread has a lot of back and forth on the transmissions, I'll ask Evolve and the others here. My CS is the only DCT car I've owned, although I've driven a couple of other dual clutch examples, Porsche and Audi. Before that, all manual transmissions. I drive the CS exclusively in manual mode, regardless of what I'm doing or where I'm going. I feel like many of the comments relating to the DCT vs the ZF are presuming they're both in auto mode. Being that I enjoy driving exclusively in manual mode, would I be disappointed enough in the ZF to just get the manual instead? I never thought I'd like a DCT over a manual, and I'm still not sure I do, but man do I really enjoy the implementation in CS. So sharp and crisp.
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      04-16-2021, 02:17 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave12285 View Post
So sharp and crisp.
If this is what you like about the DCT, then you will likely not like ZF8 as much. Some people make it out like ZF8 is smoother than melted butter, but there is still kick in a high load shift, and the shift times are general DCT level quick. However, the shifts themselves have an nearly imperceptible amount of latency - just enough to make it feel less sharp and crisp when compared directly to a good DCT. Also, the clutches in the DCT are stronger so they can be slammed, so a current planetary auto (to my knowledge) cannot replicate that. I do think that BMWs most aggressive DCT shifts sometimes feel like they are engineered to be dramatic, but this immediacy difference can still be felt in the smooth shifts under lateral load even though there is no kick IMO. Again, we are talking about feel here as I highly doubt there is any significant performance difference between the two. The biggest feel thing outside of the shifts themselves is the DCT feels like and begs to be driven like it is an automated manual, where as the ZF drives like an automatic.
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      04-16-2021, 02:34 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave12285 View Post
Since this thread has a lot of back and forth on the transmissions, I'll ask Evolve and the others here. My CS is the only DCT car I've owned, although I've driven a couple of other dual clutch examples, Porsche and Audi. Before that, all manual transmissions. I drive the CS exclusively in manual mode, regardless of what I'm doing or where I'm going. I feel like many of the comments relating to the DCT vs the ZF are presuming they're both in auto mode. Being that I enjoy driving exclusively in manual mode, would I be disappointed enough in the ZF to just get the manual instead? I never thought I'd like a DCT over a manual, and I'm still not sure I do, but man do I really enjoy the implementation in CS. So sharp and crisp.
The ZF doesn't ruin the car but it's not a DCT. It wasn't my biggest complaint with the G80 but it made the list.

You can live with it if you love the rest of the car but it's not a highlight like the DCT is.
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      04-16-2021, 03:56 PM   #53
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3 pages of gearbox debate

What about driving comparison - suspension, steering, brakes, grip, chasis balance?
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      04-16-2021, 05:04 PM   #54
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The Joe Achilles video clearly shows how DCT is quicker to kickdown.
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      04-16-2021, 05:51 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Reviews View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasya152 View Post
Wonder if the fact that the f80 is a standard m3 and non comp makes a big difference in the feel in the comparison.
Absolutely... but we'll let the brain dead G lovers, who would gladly lap up any crumbs the brand throws them, have their 15 minutes of fame.

Then years later, when their beloved pig nosed pride and joy winds up being sold for scrap, we'll see who ends up truly "butt hurt".
Haha.. Each to their own I guess and most M cars depreciate a lot anyways. I would own all the M cars if I could afford including the G. So no point in getting too edgy with G vs F. ZF, DCT, Big grills etc is almost irrelevant when you consider those people driving a Camry or Ignis next to you on the road. They are content that they have A gearbox in their cars.
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      04-16-2021, 06:20 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasa.baska View Post
3 pages of gearbox debate

What about driving comparison - suspension, steering, brakes, grip, chasis balance?
Good point, I will give my 2cents, I test drove a M4C (8zf) with my girlfriend 7 months pregnant today.

Build was fully loaded with carbon seats minus full leather. Pirelli's

Power: It was very cold outside like 37f or 3c so poor traction and it was brand new so never went over 5500rpm. The power is great it's fits the car perfectly.

Chassis: Holy cow this thing is solid, I mean it feels like a tank, you really feel the chassis isn't doing any suspension work.

Suspension : Very bad roads around here so it feels stiff but not in a wrong way, it's stiff but not crashy like my M2 was or a F82 I test drove. You feel the road a lot but you don't get banged. Noticable difference between comfort and Sport Plus, This should be very fun on track !

Interior: Once you have some time in the G series getting back in a F series feels like going back in a E series when you own a F series. A lot of improvements. Very good noise insulation also.

Exterior: Much much better in person, the wheels are totally different from a picture.

Transmission: I think the ZF8 suits this car better than a DCT but I think the DCT fits the M2 better. The M/T just adds a another dimension of interaction, it's not better or worse, just different.

Overall: There is noticable différence in character between everything in comfort and Sport plus/track mode, With the available bucket seat I think they are going to sell a shit ton of those, I can't see anything better as dual purpose car. Not everyone will buy it for the same reasons than I will but to me it is THE thing with wich I can do everything I want to do, kind of like the perfect girlfriend that you want to marry haha

I was never really satisfied with my M2, the power was fine for me but I went trough 3 suspension setups to get it OK now, the DCT is great but I missed the connection of the M/T interaction and the involvement. I think I will be super happy this time.

I ordered a 6 Speed M3 Oxide Grey II with buckets on the spot and this time it's gonna be used and enjoyed all year round !
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      04-17-2021, 07:59 AM   #57
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Great video. I've never seen his videos but I will watch more. He made me more interested in the G80 then I was. My F80 only has 13k miles so I'm hang on to it for a while, but the all wheel drive will be a compelling next buy. When I can get one used, in a few years
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      04-17-2021, 08:21 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasa.baska View Post
3 pages of gearbox debate

What about driving comparison - suspension, steering, brakes, grip, chasis balance?
Seriously. If you're debating the auto box just stfu it's in the car and you have a choice of manual or auto. The ZF 8AT is great and not a reason to not buy the car.

Great video! Love this kind of content.
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      04-17-2021, 09:15 AM   #59
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I don't agree that the interior is better than F8x and as good as an M5 and yes, it's subjective. It does look modern but that does not always mean better as F8x is simple and classy .This is just my humble view and being very picky.

The G8x dashboard is very plain and has plastic subwoofer cover. In person, you can spot that cheap plastic straight away. In photos it does look great!
There is also no stitching on the dash, which reduces the leather feel until you touch it.
The F8x subwoofer cover is proper metal and the dual stitching lines really enhance the leather feel. It looks classic/ dated but it feels like better quality.

The G8x AC vents are the worst (well it's the same in most new generation BMWs). The middle vents looks different to the side ones and the plastic in these vents is so much flimsier and looks cheaper in comparison to the F8x. The air vent turning wheel is also different for the centre vents and the side vents. Why can't they look and feel the same?!?

The touch sensitive buttons for the drive modes, etc in the G8x could have been solid buttons like in the F8x. It just lacks that feel and response when you press them.

Digital dials vs Analogue dials. Won't say more on this topic.

And I sorely missed the good old handbrake.

Specially on the G82, the front door speakers have no HK badging. There is a placeholder for the badge but it's just plain. In the G80 it does have it. Silly.
I think you got it mixed up bro. Here in the USA, I think it's the other way around, the G82 (coupe) has the HK badge on versus the G80 (sedan) which does not.
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      04-17-2021, 12:24 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Reviews View Post

You can't compare the boxes in different applications. The G8X is clearly more of a GT car, whereas its predecessors are more of a weekend sports car. The gearboxes used are a reflection of that.
I think this sums up the banter back and forth between the generations. Styling aside this is it.
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      04-24-2021, 05:10 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Here is my impression of DCT vs ZF8:

At lower RPM's (under ~4500 or so) both gearboxes feel pretty similar in shift speed and feel.
The difference I perceived is noticeable at high RPM where the G80 feels like it ramps down engine torque prior to and after the shift to save the gearbox. The DCT has no torque ramp at the shift so it feels faster and more dramatic.

The actual shift time change between gears is probably very close between the two gearboxes if you just measure the time at 0 torque but the entire shift process the ZF executes (where it ramps down torque, shifts, ramps up torque) is longer than DCT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Yes but there is still a small amount of time where you have 0 torque. It's milliseconds but it is there.

I think bmw quoted shift times are like 80ms DCt and 120ms ZF but either way it's very very small amount of time for both transmissions.
This graph/interpretation is flawed, as neither the DCT nor the ZF8 have a complete interruption of torque transmission during the upshift. Both transmissions slip one clutch pack against the other to permit continuous transmission of torque during the shift. The "shift time" is not a time where there is zero torque transmitted, it is the time laps for the first clutch pack to completely disengage while the second one simultaneously engages.

The difference lies in the fact that the DCT can make a WOT powershift and recuperate the inertia of the engine rpm drop to provide a momentary surge in acceleration. The ZF8 needs to briefly reduce engine torque during the shift to allow the planetary clutch pack to grab.
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      04-24-2021, 05:58 PM   #62
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Quote:
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TL;DR the F8X's DCT is faster, as presented in the Carwow video above.

If out and out performance is your theme, the G8X is not for you. However, if you want a relaxing GT car, then the G8X will be right up your alley, but if that's what you want, a manual gearbox option is a really baffling offering. It's almost as though BMW wasn't sure whether this is a sports car (like the F8X) or a GT car...

But then again, this is all irrelevant as you will most certainly have the last laugh if you happen to bump in to a F8X whilst driving your brand new G8X M3/4 as the driver of the F8X will have to endure barfing in their own mouth when your front grille consumes their rear view mirror as they pull away and disappear in to the horizon.
Every single test with numbers attached has the G80 as faster. Every single one.

It's faster to 60. It's faster through the quarter mile. It holds more G's. It brakes quicker. It goes around tracks faster.

If the F80 is a sports car it must not be any good to be so thoroughly trounced by a GT car.

But of course, that's nonsense.

The F80 is a fantastic car...and the G80 is faster. There is no room for debate, and I have no idea how, after watching a video where people literally drive both cars and both say that the G80 is faster both in lines and in corners, that the F80 is the faster car.
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      04-24-2021, 07:10 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Reviews View Post
Numbers are for accountants. It's all about how a car performs in the real world.

But clearly, that means nothing to you because you didn't really watch the video now did you? Because if you had, you wouldn't have come up with such nonsensical dross.

It's all well and good saying I have a M2C, but if it gets absolutely demolished by a OG M2, then what good does all the extra power (on paper) do, aside from induce a ton of embarrassment and regret as you see the taillights of your car's predecessor disappear into the distance?

For the record, I don't own a F8X M3/4 nor do I have a vested interest in them. So frankly, I really couldn't care less about either of them. However, facts are facts, and sometimes the truth hurts.
I DID watch the video, although it may not be the one you saw.

They both say the G80 is quicker. The F80 is apparently "squigglier", but the consensus for both is that the G80 is faster.

I have literally no idea how you watched that video and left with the impression that the F80 is faster. One of the very first things they say is that the G80 is crazy quick compared to it.
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      04-24-2021, 07:19 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Reviews View Post
TL;DR the F8X's DCT is faster, as presented in the Carwow video above.

If out and out performance is your theme, the G8X is not for you. However, if you want a relaxing GT car, then the G8X will be right up your alley, but if that's what you want, a manual gearbox option is a really baffling offering. It's almost as though BMW wasn't sure whether this is a sports car (like the F8X) or a GT car...

But then again, this is all irrelevant as you will most certainly have the last laugh if you happen to bump in to a F8X whilst driving your brand new G8X M3/4, as the driver of the F8X will have to endure barfing in their own mouth when your front grille consumes their rear view mirror as they pull away and disappear in to the horizon.
G80 falling behind F80 in the real world...now I've heard everything.
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      04-24-2021, 07:20 PM   #65
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Now you can see it too!
But it didn't
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      04-24-2021, 07:23 PM   #66
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What happened in both rolling runs and the brake test then? Being in denial doesn't solve the problem I'm afraid.
In the rolling runs, I see the new M ahead. Not sure how the F80 is the better performer in that regard?
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