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      06-17-2019, 12:44 PM   #419
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BMW M is a niche product line and with the pressure to cut corporate costs to pay for EV R&D, there will be unhappy customers— BMW AG is prepared for this. Time to embrace and accept that 6MT is yesterday's news.
I don't believe this is entirely true. The EV R&D is being offset by the CLAR architecture and other production consolidations. As true with any company, strategy, customer loyalty, and branding are of upmost importance when it comes to an increasingly competitive market.
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      06-17-2019, 11:03 PM   #420
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I don't believe this is entirely true. The EV R&D is being offset by the CLAR architecture and other production consolidations. As true with any company, strategy, customer loyalty, and branding are of upmost importance when it comes to an increasingly competitive market.
Total M vehicle production was around 100,000 units in 2018 where as BMW AG manufactured 2.49 million units world wide. M division represents 4% of total sales, as the 6MT take rate has been 50% for the US market M2, but below 30% for the F80/82/83. The M5, 6MGC, X5M and X6M were all 8AT production in 2018. I agree 110% regarding a successful business needs strategy and customer retention, but M vehicle 6MT is probably less than 1% of all BMW AG world wide sales. From a ROI analysis, there is no financial justification to continue 6MT R&D with your OEM part suppliers. This is a text book case from Harvard Business Review, as the 6MT R&D cost is too high even when the higher M vehicle profit margin is factored in-- figure 50% of the current 6MT customers will purchase a 8AT and the remaining vocal 6MT will leave for other brands as the cost of enthusiast 6MT customer retention is too high for BMW AG.
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      06-18-2019, 01:12 AM   #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
Total M vehicle production was around 100,000 units in 2018 where as BMW AG manufactured 2.49 million units world wide. M division represents 4% of total sales, as the 6MT take rate has been 50% for the US market M2, but below 30% for the F80/82/83. The M5, 6MGC, X5M and X6M were all 8AT production in 2018. I agree 110% regarding a successful business needs strategy and customer retention, but M vehicle 6MT is probably less than 1% of all BMW AG world wide sales. From a ROI analysis, there is no financial justification to continue 6MT R&D with your OEM part suppliers. This is a text book case from Harvard Business Review, as the 6MT R&D cost is too high even when the higher M vehicle profit margin is factored in-- figure 50% of the current 6MT customers will purchase a 8AT and the remaining vocal 6MT will leave for other brands as the cost of enthusiast 6MT customer retention is too high for BMW AG.

I agree with everything you said, but I feel a slightly longer term issue with this might be people considering the move to other brands, then never coming back and BMW losing their reputation as a manufacturer that is different to all of the others - eventually leaving them as another Acura or Infiniti.
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      06-18-2019, 05:15 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I agree with everything you said, but I feel a slightly longer term issue with this might be people considering the move to other brands, then never coming back and BMW losing their reputation as a manufacturer that is different to all of the others - eventually leaving them as another Acura or Infiniti.
M division should be ashamed of themselves for replacing M DCT with ZFat. They know full well the transmission responds nowhere as fast as DCT under demanding conditions.
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      06-18-2019, 08:29 AM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I agree with everything you said, but I feel a slightly longer term issue with this might be people considering the move to other brands, then never coming back and BMW losing their reputation as a manufacturer that is different to all of the others - eventually leaving them as another Acura or Infiniti.
This.

As the world moves towards electrification where brand differentiation will be harder to maintain as differences shrink, I would think BMW needs all its current owners to stay true within the brand.

If I decide to buy a Porsche next (even second hand) or a nice American track car, what on earth will make me come back to BMW in 5 years?? Some 9 speed auto with a mild hybrid boost? Idrive 9.2 with emotional scent feature?
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      06-18-2019, 09:40 AM   #424
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M division should be ashamed of themselves for replacing M DCT with ZFat. They know full well the transmission responds nowhere as fast as DCT under demanding conditions.
I think the post above mentioning that M has no choice is probably right...what's confounding is why not just use the existing DCT...it's robust enough to go another generation.
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      06-18-2019, 09:13 PM   #425
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From a ROI analysis, there is no financial justification to continue 6MT
Analytics and ROI calculations do not factor in emotional aspects of the human customer. After ruining a set of tires at M school, I asked why BMW offered M school? The director stated “it was all for customer retention, they lose money on all students, but they gain retention, because the customer is fully invested into M”....
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      06-18-2019, 09:31 PM   #426
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Analytics and ROI calculations do not factor in emotional aspects of the human customer. After ruining a set of tires at M school, I asked why BMW offered M school? The director stated "it was all for customer retention, they lose money on all students, but they gain retention, because the customer is fully invested into M"....
Replacing 4 tires is cheap for the performance center considering that Continental is a sponsor— wouldn't be surprised if the tires are free for the PC. Can't compare tires to the R&D cost of millions of dollars for a few thousand 6MT M vehicles.

PS did you notice the M3/M4 20 inch ZMP tires are not factory Michelin Super Sports, but Conti's?

If it was all for customer retention, then why did the Performance Center cancel all the off site Advance M Schools? Finally, the PC staff is all outsourced third party contractors expect for 2 individuals (who I will not name due to privacy). We'll see how fully invested you are when the G80 is 8AT, as the PC doesn't offers 6MT vehicles— only the M1 was 6MT.
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      06-19-2019, 03:47 PM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
Replacing 4 tires is cheap for the performance center considering that Continental is a sponsor— wouldn't be surprised if the tires are free for the PC. Can't compare tires to the R&D cost of millions of dollars for a few thousand 6MT M vehicles.

PS did you notice the M3/M4 20 inch ZMP tires are not factory Michelin Super Sports, but Conti's?

If it was all for customer retention, then why did the Performance Center cancel all the off site Advance M Schools? Finally, the PC staff is all outsourced third party contractors expect for 2 individuals (who I will not name due to privacy). We'll see how fully invested you are when the G80 is 8AT, as the PC doesn't offers 6MT vehicles— only the M1 was 6MT.
Valid points.

It is a large automobile corporation at the end of the day, in recent years, I have become a huge fan of BMW for still offering manual transmission cars, European Delivery and adding the Thermal location.

If they do not offer 6MT on the G80 it will probably signal the end of my relationship with the brand. I will go (full investment) wherever the manual transmission goes......
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      07-05-2019, 09:37 AM   #428
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In one year, July 2020, 4 Series production starts. The M3 will come shortly after as MY 2021.

- The 4 Series front will show you the front of the M3.
- Go drive an M340i xDrive. That will tell you roughly how it will handle.
- Go drive an X3 M. That will tell you about the engine and drivetrain.

Put all three together - voila.
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      08-04-2019, 08:31 AM   #429
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So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
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      08-04-2019, 09:41 AM   #430
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Quote:
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So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
Although BMW offers their “Integral Active Steering” rear wheel steering for the 5 Series and 7 Series, it is not available for the 3 Series nor the M5. This means it is virtually guaranteed not to be available for the M3 either.
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      08-04-2019, 10:13 AM   #431
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Quote:
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So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
Although BMW offers their “Integral Active Steering” rear wheel steering for the 5 Series and 7 Series, it is not available for the 3 Series nor the M5. This means it is virtually guaranteed not to be available for the M3 either.
My front wheel drive Camry has a great turn radius. They should be able to do that with all wheel drive, especially with a shorter wheelbase. We'll have to see if it still has a good turn radius.
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      08-06-2019, 02:42 PM   #432
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So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
my F80 has the worst turn radius of any car i've ever owned. It can't get worse.
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      08-06-2019, 02:46 PM   #433
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my F80 has the worst turn radius of any car i've ever owned. It can't get worse.
I was just going to say that. Our Cayenne with AWD has a much shorter turn radius. On the other hand if you live in the U.S like me large turn radius is kind of a non issue. Everything really is big over here
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      08-06-2019, 04:19 PM   #434
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my F80 has the worst turn radius of any car i've ever owned. It can't get worse.
I was just going to say that. Our Cayenne with AWD has a much shorter turn radius. On the other hand if you live in the U.S like me large turn radius is kind of a non issue. Everything really is big over here
My F30 RWD turn radius I'd say is fine not amazing considering my larger Camry with front wheel drive has about the same turn radius. You'd think they could do better if the front wheels aren't drive wheels or even if it's AWD. If it costs over $50k it should be able to do things cheaper cars can't. Even in the US we have tight parking lots and small parking spaces so a tight turn radius is needed. It's annoying when you have to back up and turn opposite lock when if you had a better turn radius you wouldn't have to.
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      08-07-2019, 07:07 AM   #435
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If your rwd car has a crappy turn radius, then that just means you're not using enough throttle
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      08-07-2019, 09:53 AM   #436
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If your rwd car has a crappy turn radius, then that just means you're not using enough throttle
This!
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      08-07-2019, 02:32 PM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
my F80 has the worst turn radius of any car i've ever owned. It can't get worse.
Volvo S60R: "Hold my beer"
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(F80 is 40 feet)
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      04-27-2020, 10:28 AM   #438
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I just watched the video where Markus Flasch is interviewed about the introduction of the M2CS. He mentions the M-division is planning on creating/releasing more limited edition/upgraded versions (Sondermodelle) of their M cars.

This really smells to me like a money-grab scheme to be honest. That would mean holding back on performance or whatever features so they can release them later for a premium as limited models. A bit like Porsche with their limited runs of GTS models or T or R models.

I would not be surprised if the G80/G82 was a bit lackluster in its initial form upon release, only to find all the editions that work better come out later on...
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      04-27-2020, 11:02 AM   #439
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I just watched the video where Markus Flasch is interviewed about the introduction of the M2CS. He mentions the M-division is planning on creating/releasing more limited edition/upgraded versions (Sondermodelle) of their M cars.

This really smells to me like a money-grab scheme to be honest. That would mean holding back on performance or whatever features so they can release them later for a premium as limited models. A bit like Porsche with their limited runs of GTS models or T or R models.

I would not be surprised if the G80/G82 was a bit lackluster in its initial form upon release, only to find all the editions that work better come out later on...
You could do like a lot do. When the car is released you order one and lease it for a couple of years when a special edition is released you order that one. Or you wait a couple of years and then order the special edition.
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      04-27-2020, 01:41 PM   #440
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I don't see how it could be considered lackluster upon release. There will always be ways to improve it but 450hp+ from an engine that has already been shown to have excessive headroom and upgraded drivetrain/suspension will be plenty capable. A lot of us will modify it to the point where a "limited production" model will feel more lackluster anyway.
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