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      06-09-2020, 12:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by unfoundnemo View Post
... I'm much more likely to head across the parking lot and look at a stripper 992 for only a few grand more.
Even stripper 992s won't be under $100k for 3 years. You'll find 991.2s in your range. I just wish I could get in and out of them without the gymnastics.
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      06-09-2020, 12:39 PM   #24
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Wait, so does this article claim that you cannot get a 6 speed Comp package car? They will be auto and X-Drive only? I honestly don't believe that. Doesn't make sense financially. I would assume they are going to use the Porsche model and release not just variations of the car over time, but transmission choices as well, like the 992 did.
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      06-09-2020, 01:46 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep View Post
Wait, so does this article claim that you cannot get a 6 speed Comp package car? They will be auto and X-Drive only? I honestly don't believe that. Doesn't make sense financially. I would assume they are going to use the Porsche model and release not just variations of the car over time, but transmission choices as well, like the 992 did.
It seems that the Manual/RWD model will be further differentiated than in past especially compared to Auto/AWD model. Therefore I think price significance will be more significant than base vs Comp in past.
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      06-09-2020, 01:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep View Post
Wait, so does this article claim that you cannot get a 6 speed Comp package car? They will be auto and X-Drive only?
Prevailing rumor and expectation is that the 6MT car will be an entry-level model pitched with a limited set of options. There's no ZCP anymore, remember. It's a separate model. It will sit at the top on the lineup and most probably be AWD only, yes.

Something like this:

M3/M4 RWD 6MT
M3/M4 RWD 8AT
M3/M4 AWD 8AT Competition

With a fourth AWD 8AT non-Competition model perhaps having a 50/50 shot at coming to market at some point.

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I honestly don't believe that. Doesn't make sense financially. I would assume they are going to use the Porsche model and release not just variations of the car over time, but transmission choices as well, like the 992 did.
What would appear to make sense financially to the outside observer is not necessarily what makes sense in the real world of tiered product strategy. I don't believe Porsche has any plans to offer a 992 Turbo or GT* RS with a manual transmission, so they are limiting engine/transmission combinations as well. It's all based on market demand.
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      06-09-2020, 03:32 PM   #27
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The comp model now has auto baked in whereas before you were paying for 2 separate packages in ZCP + DCT. But now there's the cost of AWD. I think whoever said $10k extra for the comp model is probably right.
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      06-09-2020, 07:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by evanescent03 View Post
I seem to recall plenty $80K+ (MSRP at least) F80s when optioned (lots of tech and maybe an individual paint but still nothing too crazy). If we're adding MXDr on there it'll shoot up pretty fast.

I am just basing this on my gut though and I won't fight to the death over this ... and i do hope you're right.
Maybe the lack of DCT helps offset some of the cost of adding AWD on those models...

Just a thought
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      06-10-2020, 09:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
What would appear to make sense financially to the outside observer is not necessarily what makes sense in the real world of tiered product strategy. I don't believe Porsche has any plans to offer a 992 Turbo or GT* RS with a manual transmission, so they are limiting engine/transmission combinations as well. It's all based on market demand.
Porsche's PDK is the best gearbox I have ever used. I was a diehard 6MT guy but wouldn't ever give up PDK for it. PDK performs seamlessly and much better than any 6MT/7MT
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      06-10-2020, 10:53 AM   #30
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Off the line the AWD will obviously be faster

Rolling, with only 30hp delta, a heavier weight and a higher drivetrain loss from the AWD and auto transmission, I will say its a wash...

The Pure with 6MT and 480hp is the car to go for
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      06-10-2020, 11:16 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Off the line the AWD will obviously be faster

Rolling, with only 30hp delta, a heavier weight and a higher drivetrain loss from the AWD and auto transmission, I will say its a wash...

The Pure with 6MT and 480hp is the car to go for
I think the jump in overall performance is going to be this generations standout and I’m not going to leave any of it on the table. AT+AWD+Competition for me
If it’s $10k difference that will be a bargain for what you get.

I’m not married to a specific transmission. My E90 M3 was DCT and I love it, my F80 is 6 MT and I would not want it any other way. I’m sure I’ll enjoy the AT for it’s different set of merits.

It’s no longer the 20th century when AT by default ruined any car...

Last edited by solstice; 06-10-2020 at 11:22 AM..
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      06-10-2020, 02:20 PM   #32
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Oh man, that M3 Pure. RWD, 6mt, cloth seats (hurricane seats anyone?)...exactly what I'd want.

Would also love light 18in wheels, a special color like birch green, simple adaptive suspension, carbon roof...and that's basically it. I'm sure a manual handbrake is too much to ask for. I'd even opt for non-digital gauge cluster. Make it as simple as possible.
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      06-10-2020, 07:39 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I think the jump in overall performance is going to be this generations standout and I’m not going to leave any of it on the table. AT+AWD+Competition for me
If it’s $10k difference that will be a bargain for what you get.

I’m not married to a specific transmission. My E90 M3 was DCT and I love it, my F80 is 6 MT and I would not want it any other way. I’m sure I’ll enjoy the AT for it’s different set of merits.

It’s no longer the 20th century when AT by default ruined any car...
Totally agree. In real life the performance difference is going to be very obvious.
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      06-11-2020, 02:36 AM   #34
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It’s not all about outright performance, it’s about feel and emotion too.

Heck I’d take a 100hp drop if it sounded like an e92 again!!
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      06-11-2020, 09:26 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I think the jump in overall performance is going to be this generations standout and I’m not going to leave any of it on the table. AT+AWD+Competition for me
If it’s $10k difference that will be a bargain for what you get.

I’m not married to a specific transmission. My E90 M3 was DCT and I love it, my F80 is 6 MT and I would not want it any other way. I’m sure I’ll enjoy the AT for it’s different set of merits.

It’s no longer the 20th century when AT by default ruined any car...
I would say performance is more accessible on the AWD model

However with any type of serious track driving the RWD platform will win because of the lack of extra weight (front diff + transfer case) in the front and also less maintenance on consumables due to wear and tear.
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      06-11-2020, 10:48 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
I would say performance is more accessible on the AWD model

However with any type of serious track driving the RWD platform will win because of the lack of extra weight (front diff + transfer case) in the front and also less maintenance on consumables due to wear and tear.
I disagree, the higher corner exit speed enabled by the AWD’s traction advantage (earlier on the throttle with more power) should more than make up for the extra weight. If not I doubt BMW would bother with offering AWD. I think the main reason it is offered is increased track performance, that the competition model seem to be exclusively AWD also point in this direction but we’ll see when the numbers are out and these cars are put to test by magazines how it plays out.

Last edited by solstice; 06-11-2020 at 10:59 AM..
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      06-11-2020, 05:29 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I disagree, the higher corner exit speed enabled by the AWD's traction advantage (earlier on the throttle with more power) should more than make up for the extra weight. If not I doubt BMW would bother with offering AWD. I think the main reason it is offered is increased track performance, that the competition model seem to be exclusively AWD also point in this direction but we'll see when the numbers are out and these cars are put to test by magazines how it plays out.
RWD with R comps is a good track setup... even if it comes out do the corner faster, if it feels nose heavy that won't make up for it. The 991 Turbo I drove on the track felt good though so I'll hold out judgement. Hopefully the AWD variant feels great on street and track. This should be an even better jack of all trades car than the F80 and that is saying a lot.
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      06-11-2020, 05:35 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by LSM View Post
Porsche's PDK is the best gearbox I have ever used. I was a diehard 6MT guy but wouldn't ever give up PDK for it. PDK performs seamlessly and much better than any 6MT/7MT
PDK is awesome... owned a 718S and also drove a 991 GT3 and Turbo at PECLA. No denying it's fantastic and it's what I prefer on the track so I can focus more on braking zones than downshifting (wrong and upsetting the car) and I don't have to worry about money shifts. On the street though, the manual is still my preference because I just enjoy it more. Preferred my 6MT F80 over the DCT I also owned by a long shot. DCT felt faster so i piggybacked the 6MT to make up for that hehe.
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      06-11-2020, 07:28 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by evanescent03 View Post
RWD with R comps is a good track setup... even if it comes out do the corner faster, if it feels nose heavy that won't make up for it. The 991 Turbo I drove on the track felt good though so I'll hold out judgement. Hopefully the AWD variant feels great on street and track. This should be an even better jack of all trades car than the F80 and that is saying a lot.
I never owned or been interested in an Xdrive car before, does BMW mount the engine further over the front axle for Xdrive cars or are you concerned about the weight of the AWD transfer case weighing on the nose?
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      06-11-2020, 09:46 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I never owned or been interested in an Xdrive car before, does BMW mount the engine further over the front axle for Xdrive cars or are you concerned about the weight of the AWD transfer case weighing on the nose?
I shouldn't have said nose heavy ... meant just understeery which often go hand in hand but not always directly related... I think it's probably more the mechanics of the front drive that causes a lot of AWD cars to push/plow through a turn and requires a lot of throttle lift etc to turn it in and make it through mid turn before rocketing out
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      06-12-2020, 12:46 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanescent03 View Post
I shouldn't have said nose heavy ... meant just understeery which often go hand in hand but not always directly related... I think it's probably more the mechanics of the front drive that causes a lot of AWD cars to push/plow through a turn and requires a lot of throttle lift etc to turn it in and make it through mid turn before rocketing out
Thanks for correcting your thoughts since pure RWD platforms usually don’t get noticeably more nose heavy by adding AWD. FWD platforms like Audis are both nose heavy and understeery before AWD is added.

M Xdrive is already tuned to minimize understeer in the M5, I expect the F8X with it’s sharper track focus to be tuned further for optimal track balance.

https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/maga...-m-xdrive.html

Quote:
When accelerating out of a bend, M xDrive successively puts more and more torque on the front axle when it detects decreasing lateral acceleration. At that moment, it becomes possible to transmit the longitudinal forces without understeering. This occurs so gradually that it’s possible to exit the bend with a slight drift, as one would expect from an M automobile. It feels as if you are coming out of the curve in a controlled catapult.
Another interesting piece on M Xdrive where it is explained that there is a mode purely tuned for optimal performance on a dry race track.

https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/maga...-m-xdrive.html

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In which configuration is the new BMW M5 fastest on the race track?

Jörg Weidinger: Based on our tests on various race tracks, this will always be an all-wheel mode without doubt – so in conjunction with deactivated DSC either 4WD or 4WD Sport, depending on the character of the race track.
In terms of the 4WD mode set-up, the focus was on maximum performance on wet or slippery tracks and generally speaking on extremely tight, winding tracks requiring a lot of traction. By contrast, 4WD Sport was set up and optimised taking the example of a completely dry race track.
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      06-12-2020, 11:00 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I disagree, the higher corner exit speed enabled by the AWD’s traction advantage (earlier on the throttle with more power) should more than make up for the extra weight. If not I doubt BMW would bother with offering AWD. I think the main reason it is offered is increased track performance, that the competition model seem to be exclusively AWD also point in this direction but we’ll see when the numbers are out and these cars are put to test by magazines how it plays out.
AWD traction advantage is only during low speed while on power...high speed traction is determined by aero

My view is that the 30hp difference cannot overcome the heavier weight on track, especially in a competition environment where one has to maintain performance lap after lap. There is a reason why Porsche uses RWD on the GT2RS.
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      06-12-2020, 12:03 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
AWD traction advantage is only during low speed while on power...high speed traction is determined by aero

My view is that the 30hp difference cannot overcome the heavier weight on track, especially in a competition environment where one has to maintain performance lap after lap. There is a reason why Porsche uses RWD on the GT2RS.
The answer to having RWD in the Porsche GT cars is race series restrictions. AWD is banned in most of them mainly for making the cars to dominant. The advantage of exiting every corner faster can’t be closed with moderate weight penalties. And in the case of the G8X you also add extra power to that equation and it should be game over for the RWD car. And if that isn’t enough in your case electing MT you deal with higher losses in every full throttle upshift.
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      06-12-2020, 12:45 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The answer to having RWD in the Porsche GT cars is race series restrictions. AWD is banned in most of them mainly for making the cars to dominant. The advantage of exiting every corner faster can’t be closed with moderate weight penalties. And in the case of the G8X you also add extra power to that equation and it should be game over for the RWD car. And if that isn’t enough in your case electing MT you deal with higher losses in every full throttle upshift.
I think gear ratio of 6MT will be readjusted to give broader hp range in high speeds, just like M2C is faster with MT than DCT.

And have you done serious track work with AWD&RWD platforms? AWD does give driver more confidence when tuned right but given same sticky rubber, RWDs(FR layout) are generally faster as they have less parasitic loss once they are kinetic.
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