[wayman519]

Good to see the manual is still alive and being the track test setup.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by themnmd

Tons of people on here rave about DCT though most of its benefits are on the track

Raving about it is one thing, but using the term “purist” to describe a transmission that was introduced like 12 years ago doesn’t make sense.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by xlover

Equally frustrated.... but I think following the rumors and even some of the first drive articles we should be able to order xdrive spring or summer... however I do kinda expect another buying surge for xdrive allocations, might be hard to get one at a fair price till fall 2021. This delay was probably a gift to dealers to give another round of adm/msrp sales.

According to your previous logic, it looks like the G80 will be designed and optimized for RWD. No need to even bother with xDrive since it would be the neglected stepchild of the family.

[Don_MPoor]

Oh hail the giant grill! Looks like it's not showing the front bumper in the video.

[Fhey]

Originally Posted by JJDW

What about ours! The Dutch tax is insane.

Yeah, I know. You guys sadly have it even worse than us.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by alex2364

According to your previous logic, it looks like the G80 will be designed and optimized for RWD. No need to even bother with xDrive since it would be the neglected stepchild of the family.

It probably was designed around a RWD platform but I believe marketing learned from their mistakes, by not offering a XDrive option, since a substantial portion of their consumers seems believe it's a necessity. :

However, if I was forced to go auto-only, I would get the XDrive also; I'm already chopping off my balls, I may as well throw the shaft away with it.. So to speak..

[Zirenz2006]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Raving about it is one thing, but using the term “purist” to describe a transmission that was introduced like 12 years ago doesn’t make sense.

Using the term 'purist' at all is sort of stupid.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mbanck

Are you dismissing the E46 M3 as not being a true M car, or what? I think the bimmerpost crowd will be at your doorsteps which pitchforks any minute now...

Re-read my post carefully

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

thanks for the input. I think the GT3 or at least the GT3RS does this.

So do the F8X M4 GTS and CS. The 992 also 911 all use staggered diameter wheels. It's been used on many sports car for years.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars

Coupe versions never really had that gap, or a much smaller one. The current M4 just stopped production. And since the M3 is now sedan only, well here we are.

That's because the ///M versions of the 3-series have always been based on the coupe version first. Since there is always a lag between the release of the base 3(4)-series sedan and coupe, plus an additional lag between the release of the coupe and ///M variant, there's inherently a rather large gap between the M3 sedan production.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

It's unfair to compare transverse automatics to longitudinal automatics. Longitudinal automatics are really good right now. Transverse ones are really bad. That's why almost all performance oriented transverse cars like the Civic Si/Type R, GTI, Focus ST/RS, Veloster N, etc. come either with manual trans only or DCT. Very few hot hatches and performance FWD cars will have a torque converted automatic.

Also very few high end sports cars and hyper cars have planetary automatics. There's a reason for that as well. Even the new Corvette went DCT. I feel BMW is missing out by ditching the DCT, it was a key differentiator with the competition in that segment.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

Plus side for tuners is the ZF also can take a ton more power stock than the DCT.

Unless one develops a DCT that can handle the power...

The concept of DCT is not power/torque limited: the Bugatti Chiron is a case in point.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

That's up for debate... the ZF-8 (Auto) while it won't have that same snappy direct feel as the DCT, it's pretty damn good on the track and its all a matter of tuning. BMW does the best tuning of the ZF-8(auto). The only DCT out there that BMW could use is the DCT that Porsche uses but that's not cheap but its also made by ZF, and Porsche also uses the ZF-8 speed auto.

Your talking milliseconds difference in shift times.

ZF-8 150-200ms // DCT 60-150ms // manual 500ms-1s // human blink 100-400ms

Planetary automatics have indeed significantly closed the performance gap with DCT, but they aren't quite there yet. While the reported "shift times" are very close, it is what happens during those miliseconds that makes the difference. The various clutch packs inside the planetary auto cannot handle an all out power shift, so the engine needs to momentarily cut back on power during the shift. Which is not the case with DCT, where the DCT can recuperate the inertia of the engine RPM drop and convert it in forward acceleration. With the planetary auto, there's a momentary reduction in acceleration during the shift (your head bobs forward), with the DCT there is a surge of accelerstion during the shift (your head bobs rearward).

I recently had the opportunity to test drive my buddies G90 M5 back to back with his new 992 PDK C4 and my DCT M4cs. The G90 M5 is one fantastic machine, but my biggest dissapointment with the car was the transmission. It feels heavy and slugging compared to the PDK and DCT.

[xcusem3]

Originally Posted by CachacoF80

Same here! 30% immediate increase for that alone and 20% for looks. Individual SMB and Amaro.

I can retire early!

Bahahaha you guys are hilarious!!

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Also very few high end sports cars and hyper cars have planetary automatics. There's a reason for that as well. Even the new Corvette went DCT. I feel BMW is missing out by ditching the DCT, it was a key differentiator with the competition in that segment.

Actually, it's very hard to fit a modern planetary automatic like the 8HP in a mid/rear engine design. That's why those cars have traditionally gone with DCT or manual.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Unless one develops a DCT that can handle the power...

The concept of DCT is not power/torque limited: the Bugatti Chiron is a case in point.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Planetary automatics have indeed significantly closed the performance gap with DCT, but they aren't quite there yet. While reported the "shift times" are very close, it is what happens during those miliseconds that makes the difference. The various clutch packs inside the planetary auto cannot handle an all out power shift, so the engine needs to momentarily cut back on power during the shift. Which is not the case with DCT, where the DCT can recuperate the inertia of the engine RPM drop and convert it in forward acceleration. With the planetary auto, there's a momentary reduction in acceleration during the shift (your head bobs forward), with the DCT there is a surge of accelerstion during the shift (your head bobs rearward).

I recently had the opportunity to test drive my buddies G90 M5 back to back with his new 992 PDK C4 and my DCT M4cs. The G90 M5 is one fantastic machine, but my biggest dissapointment with the car was the transmission. It feels heavy and slugging compared to the PDK and DCT.

The DCT that BMW uses is limited ( If memory serves me correct the Getrag was limited for around 516ft lbs), the ZF auto (depending on which version they are using has a max of 737) has higher max torque limits from the factory before you need to reinforce it. That is what my point was.

pbar

I agree fully... but...

The Bugatti Chiron is probably a 100K plus DCT. Now if BMW could make or get a DCT that could take tons of power, AWD, hybrid powertrains, as cost/space-effective as the ZF, and they could use it in SUVs with towing possibility we would be winning. Yeah the ZF has moments of loss in power when shifting and can't withstand as high as RPMs, however, the "normal people turbo" cars aren't high rev as the common turbo isn't made for that either. Never mind the future of E Turbos.

I would be curious to see the costs of the new 8 Speed PDK and the DCT that Chevy and Ford (Tremec TR-9070) are using.

Don't get me wrong I love a DCT. But there aren't a lot of off the shelf options unless you design from the ground up or design a car around the tranny in the AWD/RWD market.

The sedan business case is dying, how many would pay 3k more for a DCT over a stick- I would but also love sticks. I'm curious how GM/Ford pay for the DCT they use. I bet its a cost loss item in the Vette and in the Ford the GT is twice as much as a base car. Similarly to Porche, you can buy a base car and double its price in options.

We can blame the market trends and profit margins

[AD18]

Is that the camo playing tricks on my eyes or is that a new M wing mirror design with an 'upturned flick' now?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

The DCT that BMW uses is limited ( If memory serves me correct the Getrag was limited for around 516ft lbs), the ZF auto (depending on which version they are using has a max of 737) has higher max torque limits from the factory before you need to reinforce it. That is what my point was.

pbar

I agree fully... but...

The Bugatti Chiron is probably a 100K plus DCT. Now if BMW could make or get a DCT that could take tons of power, AWD, hybrid powertrains, as cost/space-effective as the ZF, and they could use it in SUVs with towing possibility we would be winning. Yeah the ZF has moments of loss in power when shifting and can't withstand as high as RPMs, however, the "normal people turbo" cars aren't high rev as the common turbo isn't made for that either. Never mind the future of E Turbos.

I would be curious to see the costs of the new 8 Speed PDK and the DCT that Chevy and Ford (Tremec TR-9070) are using.

Don't get me wrong I love a DCT. But there aren't a lot of off the shelf options unless you design from the ground up or design a car around the tranny in the AWD/RWD market.

The sedan business case is dying, how many would pay 3k more for a DCT over a stick- I would but also love sticks. I'm curious how GM/Ford pay for the DCT they use. I bet its a cost loss item in the Vette and in the Ford the GT is twice as much as a base car. Similarly to Porche, you can buy a base car and double its price in options.

We can blame the market trends and profit margins

My Chiron example was just an extreme to demonstrate that there is no power/torque" limit for the concept of DCT. The Porsche PDK is pretty stout handling Turbo-S and GT2RS power levels while being purpose built for the 911 chassis, and yet it is a no cost option.

The DCT in the E9X M3 was bespoke and purpose built for that chassis, it seems BMW were more keen in investing in their enthusiast segment then. Now, with the "democratisation" of the ///M brand, it's more about cost management.

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

My Chiron example was just an extreme to demonstrate that there is no power/torque" limit for the concept of DCT. The Porsche PDK is pretty stout handling Turbo-S and GT2RS power levels while being purpose built for the 911 chassis, and yet it is a no cost option.

The DCT in the E9X M3 was bespoke and purpose built for that chassis, it seems BMW were more keen in investing in their enthusiast segment then. Now, with the "democratisation" of the ///M brand, it's more about cost management.

I agree... M shouldn't be a letter thrown around on everything... But times have changed your Turbo at Porsche is no longer a Turbo and in some cases its EV an doesn't even have a turbo at all.

*Agree on the 911 no-cost option but it's absorbed in the price of the car and all the options you can get. Porsche also uses it in just about everything minus Cayanne which is a ZF

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

Porsche also uses it in just about everything minus Cayanne which is a ZF

The 8-speed PDK in the 992 is bespoke to that chassis...

[Gizmo 335i]

Originally Posted by GodfatherNiko

Save them!

Unfortunately I think BMW is trying to get rid of manuals but wants to blame demand as the reason. Why else would it only put a manual in the base version? Most buyers will opt for the luxury and performance increases in the competition models so when the accountants do their thing, the manual take rate will be low, justifying BMW to cancel them. They can blame it on consumers, not their bottom line. Bastards!

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Gizmo 335i

Unfortunately I think BMW is trying to get rid of manuals but wants to blame demand as the reason. Why else would it only put a manual in the base version? Most buyers will opt for the luxury and performance increases in the competition models so when the accountants do their thing, the manual take rate will be low, justifying BMW to cancel them. They can blame it on consumers, not their bottom line. Bastards!

No, they don't want to get rid of manual, as they're the only manufacturer who is still sticking with manuals. And I'm pretty sure it's not profitable to offer manual for a dozen people in US... They don't need to lower the demand to blame the demand, as the demand is already non existent.

So there is no demand, no profit, very few additional sales, and they're still offering it. But Internet has to be toxic and cynical. 'They're plotting a conspiracy'. Sure.