[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

To me, it's evidence that many BMW customers are BMW customers cause they can't afford Porsches. Once you start pricing BMWs like Porsches (which the CSL kind of is), it's causing lots of uproar.

But they are very different experiences, and you have want to buy each of them for what they are.

For sure, that does without saying. But clearly BMW have made cars like the M2 CS, M5 CS and other factory-tuned BMW's that have the "bmw feel", it just that it's costs more than people are willing to pay. Either it's out of budget or they would rather be in another car. But the fact remains, BMW still makes "BMW's", they're just limited and are a lot more expensive.

So does BMW still know what they're doing? Yes but you just have to pay for it.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by Higgs Boson

A 150k Porsche is very middle, lukewarm. I want to buy extremes. If I buy a Porsche, it will be a Turbo S or GT3. GTS is like buying an M440 and I would spend 140k on a CSL before I spend 70k on an M440.

You have to look at where a model/trim falls in a brand's lineup. Porsche is a more expensive brand than BMW.
When you cross shop based on price you spend more and get less.

1000% agree. Having driven a manual 911 GTS in the canyons in Cali, and on the track, and a 2020 PDK S, there's no way I'm paying $150k for a 911 GTS. It looks nice, it handles really, really well, and it's plenty potent...but at $150k, it's just not special enough.

At $110k, yes, a 911 is a good deal. But at $150k, I'm going to need a GT3 or a GT4 RS.

The only way it would be worth it is if you beat the hec out of it on a track on a regular basis, so you can feel where all the engineering prowess went to. But on the road, it just doesn't have enough "wow" at that price. It sounds nice but not must-have incredible, and the interior is nice but not amazing, and the stereo was good, but not $150k good.

And it looks nice, but not much different than previous 911s.

The price tag for a regular 911 is just ridiculous as a road car. And the Targa prices are insane, as cool as the Targa is.

And then Porsche has the nerve to only dole out certain allocations to "loyal customers".

[PeregrineFalcon]

Originally Posted by MachinesWithSouls

So in the CSL we're left with a car that is excellent on track, but not as good as a GT3, isn't any faster than an AWD M4, and isn't really practical or comfortable.

I would also go with the AWD M4 with all the extra goodies (actually make that an M3CS ), but there is something raw and sharp in the M4CSL that can be observed even from the videos, that is absent from all the videos I have watch for the regular G8x!
I know that the GT3 is faster on Nürburgring Nordschleife, but I have sneaky suspicion that would not be the case for every other track ( https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/goodwood-hill-climb ), and that the difference would not be that big, and what is almost crazy is the fact that the car is almost 1,5 sec. faster from 100-200 km/h (6,58 sec.) than the regular M4 (7,9 sec.), which puts it in the same class as M5CS!
In other words faster than M5C, M8C, E63S, RS6 etc.

[t$]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Absolutely, the C63 was definitely more fun than the E92 M3 (Which is one of the most overrated M cars ever, but people still seek them out just for the engine note). I like Matt from OG, but he has tuned an E92 to sound like a GT500 and just revs it to redline on B roads. That is similar to what the majority of people do with GT cars.

Also the F82 M4 GTS was a great car, no one getting a sad face with that. Its just alot of work to set-up the suspension for street use and the test cars had set-up issues (this was detailed in a now deleted DriveTribe article). Henry Catchpole at Evo Car of the Year said "the thrill this car provides is unmatched" and voted it 1st over the 911R.

The best M Cars will always be more fun to drive than any other car you can buy from any company.....fight me on that lol.

Ill give you that the e9x is down on torques from the successors/c63 and down on rawness from the predecessors, but it offers one thing that for me atleast is a major contributor to the fun factor -- a manual transmission. maybe thats not your jam, but id never even squint at a merc for that reason alone

[Purekoryo]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Yeah the S2000 is great, it's slow but gives you an amazing sensation of speed as it heads to redline. That's why those high revving Hondas are great. I loved my s2000 and K20 civic si.

But an e92 is no more streetable then a GT4. 2nd gear is 75 mph, 3rd is 113 on an e92. GT4 is 85 mph in 2nd and 121 mph in 3rd. You can't pin the throttle on street in anything but 1st gear.

At least a turbo car you are getting performance on the street. Anyone raving about modern NA cars on street are just posers.

The car everyone really wants is a 458, which has a 9200 rpm redline and goes 68 mph in 2nd in the DCT and 92 mph in 3rd. That's a streetable NA car. It's the NA car all "street" drivers want when they buy other NA cars and talk them up.

This is a good point. I used to own 718 GTS 2.5 and 718 GT4 and although GT4 is very fun to drive, I found the turbo motor to be more street able. The car I regret selling the most isn't the GT4 either, it's the 991.2 GTS; again, with the turbo motor and just enough power for the street and track.

[aj_g80]

Originally Posted by edwinm3

I've owned, tracked many M cars since the 90's, loyal customer to the bmw brand since but by reading the comments here I can tell most of you never tracked or driven any porsche GT cars

and i can tell many haven't went past the P car stage..... because after BMW thats their climax...

[beden1]

Originally Posted by Bokke

My dealer here is Dallas, sells to current clients at MSRP - this will be my 3rd one from them! Taking delivery next Friday in Atlanta at the P Center!

Mine too, if I wanted to order one today. But, and as I remind the dealership, it would be the first time that I paid sticker!

[IDKBRO]

Originally Posted by edwinm3

Nice car but I love how everyone's always trying to be or beat the gt3.

Keyword , trying.

They will try for many more years and get nowhere near.

[beden1]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

1000% agree. Having driven a manual 911 GTS in the canyons in Cali, and on the track, and a 2020 PDK S, there's no way I'm paying $150k for a 911 GTS. It looks nice, it handles really, really well, and it's plenty potent...but at $150k, it's just not special enough.

At $110k, yes, a 911 is a good deal. But at $150k, I'm going to need a GT3 or a GT4 RS.

The only way it would be worth it is if you beat the hec out of it on a track on a regular basis, so you can feel where all the engineering prowess went to. But on the road, it just doesn't have enough "wow" at that price. It sounds nice but not must-have incredible, and the interior is nice but not amazing, and the stereo was good, but not $150k good.

And it looks nice, but not much different than previous 911s.

The price tag for a regular 911 is just ridiculous as a road car. And the Targa prices are insane, as cool as the Targa is.

And then Porsche has the nerve to only dole out certain allocations to "loyal customers".

So, save yourself some time reading your car magazine reviews and go buy a G80/82/83 and start having some fun driving a very fun car in most respects!

[IDKBRO]

Originally Posted by BMWnation

Why? I had a GT3 now manual M4 and love it with a few mods. If you have not owned both, folks tend to over speculate

Did you have a 991?
Wondering how the carry over went for you from the GT3 to G8x.

[G MONEY]

Just the sound difference between the 2 is worth the price difference. Every time I drive the GT3, you can leave the radio off and just listen to the magic. All these M motors are fucking trash for sound. With the chainsaw sounds, burbles and shit on up shifts and let off. It's horrendous. 140 grand and sounds like pure ass? Ouch

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by beden1

So, save yourself some time reading your car magazine reviews and go buy a G80/82/83 and start having some fun driving a very fun car in most respects!

Already did.

And I bought mine earlier than most, ordered my RWD in March 2021, arrived 10 weeks later, and I got 10% off.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by beden1

Mine too, if I wanted to order one today. But, and as I remind the dealership, it would be the first time that I paid sticker!

Which dealership and what's the nuance? Surely this "MSRP offering" isn't for just anybody.

[xXMPowerXx]

CSL thread turned into a porch thread!!



All porch’s look the same to me, a GT3, 911…whatever, they all look like caymans to me!!

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by Purekoryo

This is a good point. I used to own 718 GTS 2.5 and 718 GT4 and although GT4 is very fun to drive, I found the turbo motor to be more street able. The car I regret selling the most isn't the GT4 either, it's the 991.2 GTS; again, with the turbo motor and just enough power for the street and track.

I really enjoyed the GTS 4.0 I had, but you couldn't really use that engine on the street. As a street car powertrain (and this counts the GT4), it can't hold a candle to the M2 CS engine/gearbox combo.

M2 CS blows it away as a driving experience.

[beden1]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Which dealership and what's the nuance? Surely this "MSRP offering" isn't for just anybody.

I've purchased a Porsche from them before and my brother had purchased a number of cars from them. My son also purchased his Porsche from them. I have also sent business their way over the years, and I've played golf with one of the partners a number of times.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by beden1

I've purchased a Porsche from them before and my brother had purchased a number of cars from them. I have also sent business their way over the years, and I've played golf with one of the partners a number of times.

Got it! Thanks for the further detail. I was curious because MSRP and GT3 do not go into the same sentence 99.999999% of the time.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Got it! Thanks for the further detail. I was curious because MSRP and GT3 do not go into the same sentence 99.999999% of the time.

You need to go to more decimal places for GT4 RS and MSRP.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

You need to go to more decimal places for GT4 RS and MSRP.

Indeed! Any time I hear about MSRP on any GT product like that, I know there's far more to the story than simply, "My dealership doesn't charge ADM."

[dezzracer]

Originally Posted by flsupraguy

Sorry but I don't get it. Buy a comp and add ohlins and tune and you have 95% a "csl".....

Wow. So not true. Not even close.

[HudsonHornett]

I've read this P car thing with a great deal of interest. I've owned a few myself and to be honest, in some way loved all of them. Would I have a GT4RS over an M4 CSL? Maybe? But it's a moot point, I can't get a GT4RS as a new car and overs for ones with 30miles on the clock are around the £300k mark, so that's not going to happen.

Whereas, I can get an M4 CSL for £130k and I know it will be a very rare sight in the UK and it should be an awesome drive. Any Porsche GT car isn't really for sale to the general public in the UK, so you literally have no chance of getting one other than to buy a LOT of Porsches you don't want. But also an M4 is just a cool car, it's fast, fun and unassuming - I think it also looks great. People bang on about the nose but I think with a number plate, it looks fine IRL. Loads of cars have vents on the bottom, with the M4, they joined the bottom to the top - the number plate breaks this up. I like the CSL BECAUSE it isn't a supercar but yet it will hold it's own when compared to a supercar. The very fact that anybody is thinking about comparing an M4 CSL to a GT3 is extraordinary when you think about it - one is effectively a family car and the other is an actual junior supercar.

Sure the CSL has had its rear seats removed, so is less practical but it's still based off the same platform as a very practical 4 seat car and yet it will lap the 'ring in 7:15? That's faster than a Carrera GT! That is amazing!

[2011ninja]

Originally Posted by TractionControlDelete

BMW still knows what they're doing…

Yup