[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by jcatral14

I might be in the minority among BMW enthusiasts but I actually like the new grille. It's an evolution of the company. Hard core enthusiasts are a small percentage of the clientele and clearly BMW want to reach out to the other 99% out there. It's a radical change for sure so kudos to BMW for being unafraid to rock the boat.

Evolve or die

Evolutionary changes pay homage to BMW heritage. The G8x thumbs its rather large nose at it. Going from the F8x to a face only a beaver mother could love is not evolving, it's a leap from where BMW once stood, once billed the ultimate driving machine.

Evolving implies moving ahead. Oversized grilles are yesterday's news, rocking the boat back to a 20-year old design feature is devolving. The future is in EV's that don't require grilles. If BMW is truly evolving, it should at least point in the right direction.

I don't mind evolution. I've studied evolution. This isn't evolution.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

BMW has definitely stared down the grill haters.

Here's the thing though - most complaining are going on about their love of the older designs and their dislike of the new colours, partnerships with lifestyle brands and hyper aggressive grills.

BMW knows full well the M3 makes its brand. Future generations are giving up on cars. You have to appeal to them to give your brand legs going forward. And they are doing that ten times over - after all they only get to launch a new M3 every 7 years.

The older M buyers can retreat to a M5 or SUV or go back hardcore to a M2. The brand will live on through their hyped up M3 marketing.

And that's why they're smarter than the complainers.

These are valid points, but actually though, the X3 and X5 are the top sellers so if we define what makes a brand by what supports it financially, it's not the M3. As far as cultural relevance though, I agree, the M3 has the badge and name that carries the most weight as far as bimmers go. But what made the M3 so great? It's association with motorsports and it's reputation as a driver's car despite being based on a mass produced mid sized/small sedan. My issue is this: if the M3 "makes its brand" based on the reputation it's built from past models, why deviate so much from the trusted formula by constantly increasing the size and weight? Why not give new perspective customers the same things that they area already presenting–hyper aggressive styling, lifestyle brands, new colors etc–and still make a car that is under 3800lbs and the size of a large luxury sedan? I don't recall any youth trends asking for heavier and bigger for sports sedans.

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

The older M buyers can retreat to a M5 or SUV or go back hardcore to a M2. The brand will live on through their hyped up M3 marketing.

Why would I want an M5 or SUV? That's a different type of vehicle.

That being said, the new M2 isn't out yet, so it remains to be seen if the M2 truly will be the M3 spiritual successor. Judging from the M2 CS though, the chances are high if they maintain that dedication on the new M2.

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

And that's why they're smarter than the complainers.

If they were "smarter" they wouldn't have made such an ugly front. I actually don't mind the big grills, they just wasn't executed well. The CSL Heritage has big grills and it looks good IMHO, so I know it can be done right. If they were "smarter" they would be able to capture a new audience AND keep a good portion of their old one or not make a car so universally mocked for it's appearance by basically all automotive outlets. Do you think a new audience is going to be larger or smaller if that front end wasn't so mocked?

[EXE46]

Just thought I would post the specs of what is the only true competition to the G80 M3 since this is the the only sedan of this caliber that can be had with a manual today. Make note of the weight....

Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

Starting Price: $59,990
Engine: 3.6-liter, twin-turbo V6
Power: 472 horsepower and 445 pound-feet of torque
Transmission: Six-speed manual with rev matching and no-lift shift | Optional 10-speed automatic
Drive Wheels: Rear
Curb Weight: 3,889 pounds
0 to 60 mph: 3.8 seconds
Top Speed: 189 mph

[bm323]

Originally Posted by EXE46

Just thought I would post the specs of what is the only true competition to the G80 M3 since this is the the only sedan of this caliber that can be had with a manual today. Make note of the weight....

Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing

Starting Price: $59,990
Engine: 3.6-liter, twin-turbo V6
Power: 472 horsepower and 445 pound-feet of torque
Transmission: Six-speed manual with rev matching and no-lift shift | Optional 10-speed automatic
Drive Wheels: Rear
Curb Weight: 3,889 pounds
0 to 60 mph: 3.8 seconds
Top Speed: 189 mph

I'm not familiar with Cadillac, probably not available here. What was the weight of the previous generation of this Cadillac model?

[bm323]

"... The Bavarian brand has always pushed the limits of what it can do and what it can make but this is truly the furthest BMW has strayed from its heritage. Cars like the BMW 4 Series, X7 and iX are so different, in one way or another, from what BMW is used to making that it’s genuinely stressing customers. Even BMW’s marketing campaigns are drastically different than before....

Of course, BMW can’t make an E46 and E39 anymore, as cars need to be bigger, heavier and more high-tech. However, that doesn’t mean they can’t be as desirable as they once were but they simply aren’t anymore....

However, that’s starting to turn because BMW isn’t the cool, sexy, desirable brand it used to be. Now, that brand is Tesla....

How does BMW come back from here? DeMuro doesn’t know and neither do we. But it sure isn’t a bunch of half-ass social media campaigns in which the stodgy old Germans pretend to be hip. It could start by making cars that are actually interesting, rather than cars with universally-hated grilles and then not doubling down on mistakes by mocking its critics. That’s probably a good place to start.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/02/05/v...th-bmw-lately/ the blog that is partial to BMW

[ashtaron14]

So if we buy one, we're part of that 20% Target Market.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/bmw...lease-everyone

We have, I think, fans rather than customers,” says Adrian van Hooydonk, BMW Group design chief. “That is certainly something we realise. We want to take them with us on this trip towards the future.”

Perhaps a bleak future, if you’ve read below the Internet’s fold. Comment sections rife with ‘they’ve lost it!’, ‘garish!’ and even ‘bring back Chris Bangle!’. Those are just the nicer bits of the web.

We’ve long been wondering what on Earth has been going on at BMW of late, the latest 7 Series being less an executive limo, more a mobile powerplant for the world’s largest grille. And then there’s the X7.

BMW’s design boss Domagoj Dukec is acutely aware of the noise surrounding the company’s creations. “I’m reading social media and press, and I can see that some people are wondering where BMW is heading, but I can assure you that we have a clear vision about where we’re going. We all love the brand.”

Was he surprised by the sheer volume of criticism the company received?

“Not really,” he tells Top Gear. “I’ve been in this business for over 20 years. You know how it is in design - everybody has an opinion. That’s normal. If you want to create something that stands out, it must be distinguished and it has to be different.”

OK. But is he absolutely adamant that they’re plotting the right course? “You can create something beautiful, and we also have cars which are just pretty. But there are some customers that, if you want to reach them, you have to stand out. You have to create something that is not in-line; maybe not like an everyday car or an everyday product, but that’s exactly the reason.”

He points to BMW’s heritage – recent heritage – and the Bangle-era BMWs which were “so criticised” at the time, now being looked back on with fondness, like the E60 5 Series. “That was breaking with everything so far [up to that point],” Dukec tells us.

“Now, this is a special time. It is different and distinguished [the new cars], I think this is something we are used to. It is not our goal to please everyone in the world. You can’t make a design which pleases everyone. But you have to please your customers,” he adds.

Ah yes, customers. Dukec pointed to a breakdown of BMW’s base, and an interesting note turned up. The company reckons 70 per cent of its buyers are what they call ‘elegant creators’ (yeah, we know): business persons of success, who want the best but don’t want to shout about it. Think BMW heartland stuff - 3, 5 and 7 Series. The remaining 30 per cent is made up of ‘expressive performers’ (really, we know); a group of buyers who are very ‘self confident’. Things like the Z4, the 8 Series, and so on.

“Not all our products get the same critics,” Dukec said. “You can see that on something as polarising like the kidneys on the 4 Series, 20 per cent of people are liking it. That fits to the type of customers we are targeting.

“Not all customers are going for the 4 Series,” he added. Which means if you’re unhappy with the grille and the 4 Series it comes attached to, you’re unlikely – at least according to BMW – to be a prospective purchaser of said grille. And said 4 Series.

“It’s impossible to create something where everybody will cheer and say ‘this is the most beautiful car in the world’,” Dukec said. (To which we say ‘E38 7 Series’. Wonder where the group called ‘nostalgic curmudgeons with no money’ fits into BMW’s fan base?)

Van Hooydonk had more to say. “It’s really fantastic [if you have fans]. It means you have people that not just buy your products, but love what you do. Of course, if they love what you do, the minute you change it, they might have an issue with it.

“It comes with the territory,” he added.

He stressed that the team’s job ‘was not easy’. “In 2021, we are making design decisions for products that will come into the market in 2024. And those will then remain in the market for seven or eight years, so beyond 2030. How will customers react in so many years from now?

“We don’t know. What we do know is that if we don’t move, we become a sitting duck. I guess the name of the game is to move enough so that the company thrives in the future, but not so much you lose contact with your fan base altogether,” he added.

[nublu2u]

Where do you start, panned from the trade mags, former designers and BMW owners but the plan all along was to target the 20% ‘expressive performers’, hahaha, good luck with that.

[EXE46]

Originally Posted by bm323

I'm not familiar with Cadillac, probably not available here. What was the weight of the previous generation of this Cadillac model?

Somewhere along the 3700LBS ballpark for the manual tranny equipped cars. Automatics obviously weighed more.

[jkap27]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

Evolutionary changes pay homage to BMW heritage. The G8x thumbs its rather large nose at it. Going from the F8x to a face only a beaver mother could love is not evolving, it's a leap from where BMW once stood, once billed the ultimate driving machine.

Evolving implies moving ahead. Oversized grilles are yesterday's news, rocking the boat back to a 20-year old design feature is devolving. The future is in EV's that don't require grilles. If BMW is truly evolving, it should at least point in the right direction.

I don't mind evolution. I've studied evolution. This isn't evolution.

To be fair those EV manufactures also have absolutely no idea what to do with the nose of the car now that a grille isn't required lol the model 3 'front dent' looks much worse than the g80 m3s front end in my opinion. I think they saw an opportunity to make the m3/m4 stand out compared to the rest of the lineup which would be pretty unique to bmw...as the c63/model 3/rs3/ct4 blackwing don't stand out a whole lot from the base models...for better or worse. Id much rather be driving a car thats divisive than basically riding around in an S3 with some minor minor visual upgrades but I can definitely see why a lot of people wouldnt.

[jkap27]

Originally Posted by nublu2u

Where do you start, panned from the trade mags, former designers and BMW owners but the plan all along was to target the 20% ‘expressive performers’, hahaha, good luck with that.

They think they already have the past BMW owners and are trying to get some new converts as well...could work or could go horribly wrong I guess we'll see 😁

[LOW4LYF]

People with old BMW's complaining and complaining but the sales numbers for "ugly" new cars going up and up!

Can't wait to order my G8x... can't wait!

[Imola3]

Well said OP, I'm sure some clown at Ford said the thing when the Edsel first came out

[jmg]

Originally Posted by LOW4LYF

People with old BMW's complaining and complaining but the sales numbers for "ugly" new cars going up and up!

Can't wait to order my G8x... can't wait!

Sales numbers for the G8X are out already?!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jmg

Sales numbers for the G8X are out already?!

At this point, the X5 and X7 are the only real data we have for sales performance vs. big-grill backlash. Both of those received plenty of internet hate, yet sales have been very, very strong. We could also look at the G11/G12 7 Series LCI too, where sales have increased only slightly, but in that case the vehicle is older and in a declining market segment, so what impact the aesthetics may have had is less clear. But, at the very least sales didn't plummet.

Certainly the outcry from online communities against the M3/M4, 4 Series, and iX has been even louder and stronger than in the above cases (no doubt in no small part because the grills are even larger still). Therefore it's tough to predict whether the same trends as above will hold or not.

It's worth noting that, similar to the 7 Series, the premium coupe/convertible segments occupied by the currently available 4 Series models are in fairly steep decline. To wit, this fact is rumored to see Mercedes exit those segments (i.e. no *206 coupe/convertible). As such, these were never going to be big movers, although if Mercedes does indeed exit then that's an opportunity to conquest. The 4 Series Gran Coupe, however - including the much hyped i4 electric model - should be held to high expectations. Yes, mid-size luxury sedans are being pushed down by luxury SUVs, but there's still lots of life. If there weren't then BMW would be wasting an opportunity by choosing the form factor for their new EV. Finally, the iX sits in what should be a very high volume segment. So naturally, expectations are sky high there.

The things is, BMW has never made individual M model sales public on any consistent basis, and they aren't going to start now. They also do not break down 4 Series sales by body style nor trim level. So there's no easy route to compare sales figures. The iX might offer some relief since it's its own product, and there's nowhere to hide. That said, we also don't have any existing model to compare it to. And EV sales are still minuscule, so modest sales relative to their ICE SUV lineup will come with the territory.

I predict all of this will lead to an enormous amount of debate with both sides of the argument claiming victory regardless of what happens. But what's most important in the end is whether BMW brand continues to grow. If they lose ground in 2021 compared to direct rivals and compared to industry trends, that a very bad sign. If that does happen, certainly it will not be inaccurate to say that the aesthetic choices did them no favors.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

At this point, the X5 and X7 are the only real data we have for sales performance vs. big-grill backlash. Both of those received plenty of internet hate, yet sales have been very, very strong. We could also look at the G11/G12 7 Series LCI too, where sales have increased only slightly, but in that case the vehicle is older and in a declining market segment, so what impact the aesthetics may have had is less clear. But, at the very least sales didn't plummet.

Certainly the outcry from online communities against the M3/M4, 4 Series, and iX has been even louder and stronger than in the above cases (no doubt in no small part because the grills are even larger still). Therefore it's tough to predict whether the same trends as above will hold or not.

It's worth noting that, similar to the 7 Series, the premium coupe/convertible segments occupied by the currently available 4 Series models are in fairly steep decline. To wit, this fact is rumored to see Mercedes exit those segments (i.e. no *206 coupe/convertible). As such, these were never going to be big movers, although if Mercedes does indeed exit then that's an opportunity to conquest. The 4 Series Gran Coupe, however - including the much hyped i4 electric model - should be held to high expectations. Yes, mid-size luxury sedans are being pushed down by luxury SUVs, but there's still lots of life. If there weren't then BMW would be wasting an opportunity by choosing the form factor for their new EV. Finally, the iX sits in what should be a very high volume segment. So naturally, expectations are sky high there.

The things is, BMW has never made individual M model sales public on any consistent basis, and they aren't going to start now. They also do not break down 4 Series sales by body style nor trim level. So there's no easy route to compare sales figures. The iX might offer some relief since it's its own product, and there's nowhere to hide. That said, we also don't have any existing model to compare it to. And EV sales are still minuscule, so modest sales relative to their ICE SUV lineup will come with the territory.

I predict all of this will lead to an enormous amount of debate with both sides of the argument claiming victory regardless of what happens. But what's most important in the end is whether BMW brand continues to grow. If they lose ground in 2021 compared to direct rivals and compared to industry trends, that a very bad sign. If that does happen, certainly it will not be inaccurate to say that the aesthetic choices did them no favors.

It was a rhetorical question, but the insight is very much appreciated!

Dealership inventory, factory incentives, the extent in which dealers are willing to discount will tell us if the new G8X will be a hit as far as sales. That said, I haven't nearly seen as many G20's on the road as I did F30's when they first came out. Los Angeles being a huge market for BMW, I think it's telling what the trends are–SUVs. Another metric is what we actually see at the track. There are almost always more than a few F8X's in the mix at local circuits. Time will tell if the heavier yet more powerful G8X will be more frequent at the drag strip, or the circuit. Traditionally, the circuit is where the M3/4 is designed to shine, but the lower hanging fruit is just to add power and traction, so we will see if the M Division is still what it once was or just another marketing tool. Granted, only a small percentage of M cars actually make it to the track, but it was its worthiness that brought it to fame in the first place, regardless of what customers actually do with them. Without the motorsports DNA, it's just badge for customers who just want the attention without the substance.

[M3_WC]

BMW has an out...they can always blame sales on covid. They would never admit the pig nose was the wrong move.

I will say the same 2021 4-series continue to sit on my cities two BMW dealer lots, while other inventory is moving. I suspect some very good lease deals are coming and a lot of 4-series turned into loaners.

My opinion BMW decided to use their most iconic car(M3) to introduce the pig nose grill design. Shock everyone now, rather than during the introduction of their up coming EV lineup. They basically whored out the M3. They needed the design to be mainstream before EV launch.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jmg

It was a rhetorical question, but the insight is very much appreciated!

Sure, but that's mainly due to the fact that sales won't officially begin until next month. At some point the question will be asked with expectations of getting answers. I figured there was no harm in being a little proactive, right?

Dealership inventory, factory incentives, the extent in which dealers are willing to discount will tell us if the new G8X will be a hit as far as sales.

We already know from discussion on this forum that interest is strong and discounts are difficult to come by. But this trend - even if it continues indefinitely - is extremely unlikely (IMHO) to get much concession from anyone convinced that the the grill is going to tank the product(s). The reason for this is that qualitative observations like this don't always reflect market reality. Furthermore, the F8x eventually had lots of available inventory and copious incentives as well, while it has nevertheless been deemed a successful product.

That said, I haven't nearly seen as many G20's on the road as I did F30's when they first came out.

BMW publishes G20 sales numbers, so you can readily see whether your anecdotal observation is a reflection of its actual market performance.

However, the G20 does not have a "big grill" so I don't think it is relevant to topic of this thread. BMW did outsell its German competitors both in the US and worldwide in 2020, and was also the top luxury brand in the US. At the end of the day, they don't care (well, strictly speaking, they will naturally prefer to move higher margin product) if those are G20 sales or G01 sales, or any other BMW product. In fact, sometimes manufactures employ strategies designed expressly to move their customers from a product in a declining segment to a product in a growth segment in order to keep them from switching to a different brand. This is why I indicate that overall company performance is what's really important. Of course, it is possible to increase sales while decreasing profit, so even sales data can be deceptive. Furthermore, short term profit gains do not always indicate long term health and viability. These facts just add to the pile of reasons why I say there will be no winner at the end of this battle. Many of the folks that want BMW of yesteryear to return are forever going to hope for BMW of today to fail, and will forever claim that BMW of today and tomorrow is doomed.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Many of the folks that want BMW of yesteryear to return are forever going to hope for BMW of today to fail, and will forever claim that BMW of today and tomorrow is doomed.

I don't want the BMW of yesteryear, if I did, I would have gotten a E46 instead of two F80's. What I want as a customer is quite simple: continue the trajectory the F8X started with the progression from the E90. Make it lighter and faster. That's what made the F8X such a great car. The G80 needed to be lighter and faster. It might not be realistic, nor financially feasible, but my role as a customer isn't to be forgiving with the manufacturers. OUR role as customers is to be critical, discriminating, demanding, and fickle. It incentivizes the manufacturers. That's how progress works, that's how we get the best products. Honesty truly is the best policy because BMW needs honest feedback even if it's from a tiny demographic-It paints a complete picture.

Regardless of the sales numbers, successful or not, my criticisms of the G8X are no more or less valid and honest. If the car is a huge success does that mean we deserve an "I told you so"? Does the opinions of many others invalidate the individual? We are either labeled sheep or outliers with similar potential to be disingenuous. The popularity of an opinion is a metric for frequency, not truth.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jmg

I don't want the BMW of yesteryear

Fair enough. Everything you say is completely reasonable, if diverging from the topic. My post was meant specifically cover those hedging fiscal performance on a single aesthetic trait.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

BMW publishes G20 sales numbers, so you can readily see whether your anecdotal observation is a reflection of its actual market performance.

For the sake of the argument, even though it doesn't really matter, here is what I found on 3 series sales:

https://carsalesbase.com/us-bmw-3-series-4-series/

2018 was the beginning of the sale of the G20. 2018 and 2019 were lower in sales compared to 2017, the last full year of the outgoing and aging F30. Does that mean the F30 was the better car? No. It could mean more people are buying SUV's. I'm just saying, the heavier, bigger G20 didn't really help despite throwing us the M bone with the M340i. Reviews were slightly better than the F30's when it was released, but too much has changed at BMW. No, it doesn't have to go back to the BMW of yesteryear, it just has to be better.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jmg

It could mean more people are buying SUV's.

According to the data, that's exactly what's happening, yes.

No, it doesn't have to go back to the BMW of yesteryear, it just has to be better.

As a customer, you get to define "better" however you want, and what's fantastic about a free market is you can shop around to find products that most closely meet your needs. If the traits you are looking for are marketable, other corporations will be happy to have your business.

BMW defines "better" through the lens of investors, so they are more constrained. Like any corporate entity, their product mix will change over time. Of course they'd like to retain 100% of their existing customers, but sometimes that's not feasible so they must compromise by settling for turnover with net positive share or revenue.

At any rate, it's an exciting time for automotive fans. Lots of new technology, lots of disruption, and lots of great product.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

According to the data, that's exactly what's happening, yes.



As a customer, you get to define "better" however you want, and what's fantastic about a free market is you can shop around to find products that most closely meet your needs. If the traits you are looking for are marketable, other corporations will be happy to have your business.

BMW defines "better" through the lens of investors, so they are more constrained. Like any corporate entity, their product mix will change over time. Of course they'd like to retain 100% of their existing customers, but sometimes that's not feasible so they must compromise by settling for turnover with net positive share or revenue.

At any rate, it's an exciting time for automotive fans. Lots of new technology, lots of disruption, and lots of great product.

Exactly, vote with your wallet.