[Patton250]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

You literally just contradicted yourself there. So the car market makes no difference but how the G8x did compared to other vehicles in its class does? The other cars in the class are a representation of the market conditions for this class. And how that market performs plays a factor in determining if the G8x is a success or failure.

At this point I'm not sure if you're just trolling or if you really don't understand basic analytical concepts. I never claimed it "can't be more popular than the F80". In fact I stated it will likely sell more than the F80 due to features offered which appeal to non-enthusiasts (which represent a much larger number of car buyers than enthusiasts - thus why BMW is targeting them by making this generation more refined and approachable).

The point here is that absolute sales figures only paint part of the picture. You need to consider all factors to determine if something can be considered a success or a failure.

You have to consider things like:
Sales figures
Market share
Economic conditions (i.e. many companies are finding it difficult to use 2020 data reliably since covid caused havoc on supply chains, and continues to into 2021)
etc.

Notice how nowhere in my factors to consider did I mention "forum comments". Simply "following the money" is such a rudimentary approach.

Are you purposely spinning what I said or did you just not read it properly? I’m open to either here but I’m genuinely confused. I didn’t contradict myself because both those things mean money spent. I.e. sales figures.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Are you purposely spinning what I said or did you just not read it properly? I’m open to either here but I’m genuinely confused. I didn’t contradict myself because both those things mean money spent. I.e. sales figures.

I mean... if you don't get the logical holes in what you're saying then there's no helping you understand... makes sense why you're confused in that case.

I'll leave it at this, as sort of a last ditch effort - take a look at 3 series sales in general, particularly since 2014. If you ONLY looked at sales volume and didn't consider any other factor, you'd be a complete moron to continue to offer the 3 series in the US. Sales for the 3 series have literally more than halved since 2014. So in a vacuum it looks like the 3 series is a colossal failure year after year.

Now if you compare that to the broader small luxury sedan market as a whole, you begin to realize the entire market is on a steep decline, as those sales have continually been cannibalized by small SUV sales.

Now as BMW executive team, you have 2 ways of looking at this.
1) You only focus on absolute sales volume and deem the 3 series a failure because it's in a steep downward decline over the past 6-7 years.
2) You take a more nuanced approach and recognize that the cannibalization in sales is occurring due to strong crossover SUV sales, and as such you promote your small SUV's. But you ALSO see that in 2019 (pre-covid) the 3 series commanded ~40% of the market share of small luxury sports sedan sales, and you recognize that despite dwindling sales, there is still a strong market presence as reflected in the strong market shares.

Now apply this same logic to the G8x (and before you get confused again, no I'm not saying M3/M4 owners are migrating to SUV's.... I mean apply the logic of external economic factors). The G8x simply selling less than the F8x does not automatically render it a failure, and conversely the G8x simply selling more than the F8x does not automatically render it a success. So no, it's not ONLY about following the money.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I mean... if you don't get the logical holes in what you're saying then there's no helping you understand... makes sense why you're confused in that case.

I'll leave it at this, as sort of a last ditch effort - take a look at 3 series sales in general, particularly since 2014. If you ONLY looked at sales volume and didn't consider any other factor, you'd be a complete moron to continue to offer the 3 series in the US. Sales for the 3 series have literally more than halved since 2014. So in a vacuum it looks like the 3 series is a colossal failure year after year.

Now if you compare that to the broader small luxury sedan market as a whole, you begin to realize the entire market is on a steep decline, as those sales have continually been cannibalized by small SUV sales.

Now as BMW executive team, you have 2 ways of looking at this.
1) You only focus on absolute sales volume and deem the 3 series a failure because it's in a steep downward decline over the past 6-7 years.
2) You take a more nuanced approach and recognize that the cannibalization in sales is occurring due to strong crossover SUV sales, and as such you promote your small SUV's. But you ALSO see that in 2019 (pre-covid) the 3 series commanded ~40% of the market share of small luxury sports sedan sales, and you recognize that despite dwindling sales, there is still a strong market presence as reflected in the strong market shares.

Now apply this same logic to the G8x (and before you get confused again, no I'm not saying M3/M4 owners are migrating to SUV's.... I mean apply the logic of external economic factors). The G8x simply selling less than the F8x does not automatically render it a failure, and conversely the G8x simply selling more than the F8x does not automatically render it a success. So no, it's not ONLY about following the money.

You definitely are not and never have been in charge of or around people that are responsible for generating revenue for a living. This has become painfully obvious to me.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I mean... if you don't get the logical holes in what you're saying then there's no helping you understand... makes sense why you're confused in that case.

I'll leave it at this, as sort of a last ditch effort - take a look at 3 series sales in general, particularly since 2014. If you ONLY looked at sales volume and didn't consider any other factor, you'd be a complete moron to continue to offer the 3 series in the US. Sales for the 3 series have literally more than halved since 2014. So in a vacuum it looks like the 3 series is a colossal failure year after year.

Now if you compare that to the broader small luxury sedan market as a whole, you begin to realize the entire market is on a steep decline, as those sales have continually been cannibalized by small SUV sales.

Now as BMW executive team, you have 2 ways of looking at this.
1) You only focus on absolute sales volume and deem the 3 series a failure because it's in a steep downward decline over the past 6-7 years.
2) You take a more nuanced approach and recognize that the cannibalization in sales is occurring due to strong crossover SUV sales, and as such you promote your small SUV's. But you ALSO see that in 2019 (pre-covid) the 3 series commanded ~40% of the market share of small luxury sports sedan sales, and you recognize that despite dwindling sales, there is still a strong market presence as reflected in the strong market shares.

Now apply this same logic to the G8x (and before you get confused again, no I'm not saying M3/M4 owners are migrating to SUV's.... I mean apply the logic of external economic factors). The G8x simply selling less than the F8x does not automatically render it a failure, and conversely the G8x simply selling more than the F8x does not automatically render it a success. So no, it's not ONLY about following the money.

Not really wanting to get into this running argument...but sedan figures overall continue to drop like a stone. The 3 series isn't alone in that. Compare RAV4 sales by year to Camry or Corolla sales and "in a vacuum" is exactly where you can't look at any of this. Just within BMW, I think it's also clear that the X3/X4M's will peel away some sales from the M3/4.

Reminds me of a post a while ago complaining that Merc C-Class numbers were high compared to BMW 3's (and I think they mentioned Audi A and S 4's, too). Merc still has sedans and coupes in the same block of numbers...BMW doesn't, and neither does Audi. At the time of that post, 3+4 sales combined were still higher than the C-class in the US (no idea what they are now).

Sales figures can't be looked at in a vacuum. The market has continued to change since 2014.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Not really wanting to get into this running argument...but sedan figures overall continue to drop like a stone. The 3 series isn't alone in that. Compare RAV4 sales by year to Camry or Corolla sales and "in a vacuum" is exactly where you can't look at any of this. Just within BMW, I think it's also clear that the X3/X4M's will peel away some sales from the M3/4.

Reminds me of a post a while ago complaining that Merc C-Class numbers were high compared to BMW 3's (and I think they mentioned Audi A and S 4's, too). Merc still has sedans and coupes in the same block of numbers...BMW doesn't, and neither does Audi. At the time of that post, 3+4 sales combined were still higher than the C-class in the US (no idea what they are now).

Sales figures can't be looked at in a vacuum. The market has continued to change since 2014.

Sales numbers have always been used to determine a companies direction. When gas prices drop then SUVs and trucks become more popular so manufactures will produce more. When gas prices go up then SUVs and trucks become less popular and they produce less of them. This is not very complicated. If you take his logic he might argue that the new Corvettes popularity can’t be determined by the fact that every single one of them sells over retail if you can even find one. You know since sales figures have nothing to do with determining a product success? It’s madness!!!

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Sales numbers have always been used to determine a companies direction. When gas prices drop then SUVs and trucks become more popular so manufactures will produce more. When gas prices go up then SUVs and trucks become less popular and they produce less of them. This is not very complicated. If you take his logic he might argue that the new Corvettes popularity can’t be determined by the fact that every single one of them sells over retail if you can even find one. You know since sales figures have nothing to do with determining a product success? It’s madness!!!

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was disagreeing with looking at the sales numbers in a vacuum. BMW's finance folk and execs won't be. Whatever sales targets they have for the plain 3 and the M3 will be taking everything into account that they can think of.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by bri1042

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was disagreeing with looking at the sales numbers in a vacuum. BMW's finance folk and execs won't be. Whatever sales targets they have for the plain 3 and the M3 will be taking everything into account that they can think of.

Not worth arguing with him. He continues to contradict himself and is apparently not capable of fundamenral analytical logic. Figured my 3 series example was simple enough to comprehend but I guess some people aren't capable.

100% you can not look at sales figures in a vacuum, and all external factors must be considered.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by bri1042

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was disagreeing with looking at the sales numbers in a vacuum. BMW's finance folk and execs won't be. Whatever sales targets they have for the plain 3 and the M3 will be taking everything into account that they can think of.

I agree.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Not worth arguing with him. He continues to contradict himself and is apparently not capable of fundamenral analytical logic. Figured my 3 series example was simple enough to comprehend but I guess some people aren't capable.

100% you can not look at sales figures in a vacuum, and all external factors must be considered.

Way to come off like a chill dude

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Not worth arguing with him. He continues to contradict himself and is apparently not capable of fundamenral analytical logic. Figured my 3 series example was simple enough to comprehend but I guess some people aren't capable.

100% you can not look at sales figures in a vacuum, and all external factors must be considered.

No man I totally understand what you’re talking about and just disagree. You’re frustrated that there are more G80s selling, in the beginning at least, then F80s did. Significantly more. That’s upsetting to you because that’s not supposed to happen. Everyone is supposed to hate new the grille like you do. So you’re coming up with all kinds of different excuses to justify why all these people are spending so much money on things they obviously hate and think are ugly like you do. At the end of the day you’re just going to have to admit, at least to yourself privately anyway that people don’t spend 90K on something they think is ugly. It doesn’t happen. Even billionaires don’t do that.

Now cheer up. Just because it’s strong in the beginning doesn’t mean it will finish strong. You can always hope to be proven right next year or the year after. Buy right I mean that BMW was stupid to change the front of this car to anything other then what would make current or former F80 owners happy.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Patton250

No man I totally understand what you’re talking about and just disagree. You’re frustrated that there are more G80s selling, in the beginning at least, then F80s did. Significantly more. That’s upsetting to you because that’s not supposed to happen. Everyone is supposed to hate new the grille like you do. So you’re coming up with all kinds of different excuses to justify why all these people are spending so much money on things they obviously hate and think are ugly like you do. At the end of the day you’re just going to have to admit, at least to yourself privately anyway that people don’t spend 90K on something they think is ugly. It doesn’t happen. Even billionaires don’t do that.

Now cheer up. Just because it’s strong in the beginning doesn’t mean it will finish strong. You can always hope to be proven right next year or the year after. Buy right I mean that BMW was stupid to change the front of this car to anything other then what would make current or former F80 owners happy.

huh?? you must have me confused with someone else. I actually like the look of the G8x. If you scroll up a few pages I said I love how aggressive it looks and how much road presence it has. You even replied to that comment lol. I have no loyalties to the F8x... I've never owned one or plan to.

I was simply arguing your logic of absolute sales figures in a vacuum to determine sales success vs. considering all economic factors at play. Even if the G8x doesn't sell as well as the F8x did, it's not automatically considered a failure, and the reverse is also true.

[Alvinmark12]

Originally Posted by Patton250

No man I totally understand what you’re talking about and just disagree. You’re frustrated that there are more G80s selling, in the beginning at least, then F80s did. Significantly more. That’s upsetting to you because that’s not supposed to happen. Everyone is supposed to hate new the grille like you do. So you’re coming up with all kinds of different excuses to justify why all these people are spending so much money on things they obviously hate and think are ugly like you do. At the end of the day you’re just going to have to admit, at least to yourself privately anyway that people don’t spend 90K on something they think is ugly. It doesn’t happen. Even billionaires don’t do that.

Now cheer up. Just because it’s strong in the beginning doesn’t mean it will finish strong. You can always hope to be proven right next year or the year after. Buy right I mean that BMW was stupid to change the front of this car to anything other then what would make current or former F80 owners happy.

That is spot on. The old F owners are flipping out over a grill. Based on polls 70% of buyers of the G series never owned a M before. Simple their are hundreds of cars to buy. Don't like the grill get a Mercedes.

[ghok]

Take a look at BMW website, all other Ms (except M3,M4), they are showing the front. Only M3 and M4 show the rear.

Why ?

[MarineRaider]

Originally Posted by ghok

Take a look at BMW website, all other Ms (except M3,M4), they are showing the front. Only M3 and M4 show the rear.

Why ?

So are you in a basement with tinfoil wrapping your head? Geez, is your life so empty you looked at that photo and channeled your narrative into the marketing department of BMW?

Let me help you be rational...if possible.

Do you think BMW which controls every single aspect of marketing and messaging at this point is running from the grills? After being asked point blank the designer flatly said if you don't like it don't buy it we are not changing it. I have never seen that definitive of a response from a car manufacturer and this includes Porsche with the 996 headlights or the Bangle designs.

Maybe they wanted to highlight the pronounced M3 rear wheel flares ( one of the reasons I bought a M3 over a M4) or the aggressive rear end of the M4 as why they chose those pictures. Regardless it is VERY safe to say it's not because fo the front grills.

So take off the tinfoil, emerge from the basement and for the love of Mikefind something you like, this is not worth the effort.

[ghok]

Oh.... no need to be that angry. Certainly BMW are very brave and personally after the three previous generation M3 and the current M5, I'm going separate way.

Beauty is very subjective, rational ? there is none.

[Sedan_Clan]

In this thread…..


….people still claim BMW is failing despite evidence of the contrary. It'll be nice once we can get past this.

[MarineRaider]

Originally Posted by ghok

Oh.... no need to be that angry. Certainly BMW are very brave and personally after the three previous generation M3 and the current M5, I'm going separate way.

Beauty is very subjective, rational ? there is none.

Angry? Hardly. Amused? Assuredly.

I find it incredibly amusing that so many people who have no intention of buying a G8x shout at the top of their lungs how much they hate the grills and their money is going elsewhere. BMW has already spoken, go.

The market says otherwise, they are flying off the shelves so to speak.

But your post was comical, slightly disturbing and ultimately illuminating to the state of the internet now. You posted a screen grab from a BMW advertisement after much study I am sure and laid out the perfect diabolical plot of BMW marketing taking a stab at design and management. " We will show them, we are NOT going to show those grills, you can't make us!" I give you credit, you have unlocked the secret war brewing in Germany. Audi & Mercedes are rubbing their palms together in approval.

Fine work.

[Shinzzze]

Originally Posted by ghok

Oh.... no need to be that angry. Certainly BMW are very brave and personally after the three previous generation M3 and the current M5, I'm going separate way.

Beauty is very subjective, rational ? there is none.

New account? Not very persuasive about your claimed ownership if you have less reputation than my week-old account as a first-time M owner Lmao

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

In this thread…..


….people still claim BMW is failing despite evidence of the contrary. It'll be nice once we can get past this.

I agree. I’m new to car forums. Is this typical behavior for auto fans? By behavior I mean when auto manufacturers make a design change that some don’t like or even hate do they always flock to the forums telling everyone how ugly their vehicles are and how stupid the manufacturer is? I’m mostly into watches and guns and belong to forums dedicated to those hobbies and that does happen there as well only about 100X less intense and 1000X less mean. So I’m not use to this. Perhaps F80 guys are cultists?

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I agree. I’m new to car forums. Is this typical behavior for auto fans? By behavior I mean when auto manufacturers make a design change that some don’t like or even hate do they always flock to the forums telling everyone how ugly their vehicles are and how stupid the manufacturer is? I’m mostly into watches and guns and belong to forums dedicated to those hobbies and that does happen there as well only about 100X less intense and 1000X less mean. So I’m not use to this. Perhaps F80 guys are cultists?

No, it isn't just F80 guys. The F30 forum was filled with E90 hate back when I first got an F30 328, too. Go to any car forum, or any part of this one, and read the comments on posts where some put a tall wing on their car. Doesn't matter which car (well, maybe not Type R forums)...any car. At least half the comments are negative, and a quarter down-right rude. Some human spends money they earned on a wing that makes them happy and then folk hit them over the head.

I'm the reverse of you. Despite having started my on line life before HTTP existed, I don't spend a lot of time on forums. I have more posts on bimmerpost than I've posted on the entire rest of the internet during its ENTIRE history. The only other forum I spent time on was the RSX forums back in the day when that car was new. And that board was a horror show of misogynists and 'phobes.

In addition, I was in a local reddit thread about restaurants yesterday looking for some where to take my sweetie for breakfast before the heat set in and people were calling each other stupid for liking pancakes at one spot. The internet has shown us who people really are without the filters on. And it's not pretty.

If watch forums are nicer, it makes me want to buy a nice watch. I get watch tans in about 8 seconds, though, so that might be a negative.

On the other hand, I've now come out of stores 19 times to find people taking pictures of my car. The last one was yesterday (the gent had a very nice E46 M3 'vert). THOSE conversations have been tons and tons of fun.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by bri1042

No, it isn't just F80 guys. The F30 forum was filled with E90 hate back when I first got an F30 328, too. Go to any car forum, or any part of this one, and read the comments on posts where some put a tall wing on their car. Doesn't matter which car (well, maybe not Type R forums)...any car. At least half the comments are negative, and a quarter down-right rude. Some human spends money they earned on a wing that makes them happy and then folk hit them over the head.

I'm the reverse of you. Despite having started my on line life before HTTP existed, I don't spend a lot of time on forums. I have more posts on bimmerpost than I've posted on the entire rest of the internet during its ENTIRE history. The only other forum I spent time on was the RSX forums back in the day when that car was new. And that board was a horror show of misogynists and 'phobes.

In addition, I was in a local reddit thread about restaurants yesterday looking for some where to take my sweetie for breakfast before the heat set in and people were calling each other stupid for liking pancakes at one spot. The internet has shown us who people really are without the filters on. And it's not pretty.

If watch forums are nicer, it makes me want to buy a nice watch. I get watch tans in about 8 seconds, though, so that might be a negative.

On the other hand, I've now come out of stores 19 times to find people taking pictures of my car. The last one was yesterday (the gent had a very nice E46 M3 'vert). THOSE conversations have been tons and tons of fun.

Really well put man. To be honest this entire grille thing has turned me into a part time tool as well. I had to PM wtwo3 and apologize for calling him out as a hater when he wasn’t. I was wrong and he deserved an apology. I don’t like getting so defensive but as you said some of these guys are just plain mean. Trolling is at a maximum with this grille. Meanwhile just like you I get people smiling next to me in traffic and walking up and looking at my car everywhere it’s parked. I have yet to hear a negative comment or see a frown from anyone. Also as stated earlier these things are flying off the shelves in droves. In other words they are very popular. So obviously some people like them. I’ve only been buying nicer cars for the past four years as my children have grown up and are graduating college and I don’t feel guilty spending 80K+ on a vehicle. When I decided on the M3 I found this place because I thought it would be fun to share experiences and I also figured there would be a wealth of knowledge here where I can ask questions and get advice. I didn’t know I would be spending most of my time reacting to ridicule. However at the end of the day it’s my own fault that I spend so much time reacting. Taking the bait if you will. As I stated before just never dawned on me to go to threads on forums to comment on things I don’t like or have interest in. Believe me I get that some people are genuinely bothered by the change because they have emotional ties to the old grille but I would think by now they would’ve gotten over it and moved on to a different model or brand. Mercedes, Audi an American muscle cars offer a whole variety of same price range bad ass driving and looking vehicles.

[bri1042]

Patton - It isn't all bad. Yes, I do think that most of the folk who are overly negative on many forums probably do not treat people that poorly in real life. Some probably do, but most probably don't. Many simply don't think manners apply to text or that the internet is where they can be free of normal social conventions. We'd all have a better time if everyone treated text the same as they do speaking to people in public. There would still be asshats, but there would be less.

On the plus side, MANY folk here have positive conversations about cars when they would not mix in the real world. I get to come here and have pleasant conversations about cars with people that would be on the other side of a political protest/counter-protest in the real world, and that's not a bad thing.

This is where we can come and talk about something as simple as a car. And cars really are simple subjects (so are watches?) compared to a lot of things folk can argue about. And I appreciate that aspect.