[Bimmerfun82]

Comments on this post are pure gold and restore my faith in humanity. Jason Camisa should read these.

snapped a pic - blocked names just in case that's a thing on bimmerpost. I couldn't find a positive comment about the Tesla

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...00993324421624

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Comments on this post are pure gold and restore my faith in humanity. Jason Camisa should read these.

snapped a pic - blocked names just in case that's a thing on bimmerpost. I couldn't find a positive comment about the Tesla

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...00993324421624

I mean, outside of a Tesla club page, where do you expect any support for EV's on social media? Especially tired of the "microwave cooks faster but the grill tastes better" attempt at a comparison. Which is not apt whatsoever. I guarantee most of those commenters have never driven an EV of any kind. I wouldn't wipe my a@@ with these comments.

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Nice try with the "New gen is almost entirely focused on track improvements" Who will want to drive a 5000+ lbs car doing braking, turn, apex and exit all day on track. It may be fun to watch but not sitting in the driver seat as a driver

Here were my experience with years of tracking in different cars:

more weight= Greater level of inertia - less willingness to change direction. Anything you do to combat this resistance to change motion will ultimately be a compromise, such as increased toe angle. Thus you have to setup the car in a way that a lighter car may not have to be compromised for, if you want the same level of responsiveness.

more weight transfer in cornering/accelerating/braking meaning two things: suspension geometry is more affected by aforementioned changes, and total grip is reduced due to tire load sensitivity (which states the coefficient of friction for a tire actually reduces when more load applied). Weight causes more drop off in grip during changes of direction/acceleration

more weight means higher thermal load, meaning more cooling requirements, which can potentially strain the system for more competitive driving.

the weight of heavier duty components in both the suspension and brakes can result in two negative factors: greater rotational mass and greater unsprung mass, both of which negatively affect handling/feel

Yeah, except you forgot the fact that a Model 3 performance is only 60 lbs heavier than an M3 Comp xDrive. And it's 4,050, not 5,000 lbs. So by that measure, we shouldn't track our M3's either.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I mean, outside of a Tesla club page, where do you expect any support for EV's on social media? Especially tired of the "microwave cooks faster but the grill tastes better" attempt at a comparison. Which is not apt whatsoever. I guarantee most of those commenters have never driven an EV of any kind. I wouldn't wipe my a@@ with these comments.

Not the response I expected in an M3 forum but you do you

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Not the response I expected in an M3 forum but you do you

If people are going to attack Tesla, there is plenty, and I mean, PLENTY of easy targets to go for. The same tired tropes I see posted everywhere just make me annoyed, because it's so easily overlooked and doesn't force Tesla to improve on what they need to improve on. I mean, I've pretty well established my disdain for them in the thread. I guess I just dislike people who pile on just to seem cool?

No attack against you. You did your due diligence and made your choice, as have I. We both voted in the same direction. But these comments are just boorish and uninformed.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

If people are going to attack Tesla, there is plenty, and I mean, PLENTY of easy targets to go for. The same tired tropes I see posted everywhere just make me annoyed, because it's so easily overlooked and doesn't force Tesla to improve on what they need to improve on. I mean, I've pretty well established my disdain for them in the thread. I guess I just dislike people who pile on just to seem cool?

No attack against you. You did your due diligence and made your choice, as have I. We both voted in the same direction. But these comments are just boorish and uninformed.

Here’s why I think it’s fair game. Tesla pages on FB are pushing this comparison between the M3 and model 3 performance.

I honestly think it’s funny.

In some respects it’s fair to compare. But in others there is - and has to be - respect for the M3 above all the stats.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Here’s why I think it’s fair game. Tesla pages on FB are pushing this comparison between the M3 and model 3 performance.

I honestly think it’s funny.

In some respects it’s fair to compare. But in others there is - and has to be - respect for the M3 above all the stats.

Here's my take on Tesla owners....I actually take pity on them to a certain extent. Hear me out. They are insufferable. As an owner I fought so many battles on TOC and TOO forums. But I think I figured out why.

So you have a bunch of people who have, up until this point in life, been completely NOT into cars. Whatsoever. Like car = appliance. Now, they actually ARE into cars. Sure, much of it is not the same reason we are into cars. They like the tech, mostly. But also, there is some element of fun to driving a Tesla, especially a performance model, and they like it. Now driving is actually enjoyable!

Except...they don't realize they are new to the party and act all cool and macho because their car has a great party trick...acceleration. They don't realize there's much more to it than that, but because car mags have touted acceleration for so long, and their car not only is competitive but wins many battles, they think they are king of the hill. So they do dumb stuff. And yes, they do deserve mockery for it.

So at the end of the day I do agree with you but I do have pity for some of them. At least the ones that can get their head out of their ass.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Here's my take on Tesla owners....I actually take pity on them to a certain extent. Hear me out. They are insufferable. As an owner I fought so many battles on TOC and TOO forums. But I think I figured out why.

So you have a bunch of people who have, up until this point in life, been completely NOT into cars. Whatsoever. Like car = appliance. Now, they actually ARE into cars. Sure, much of it is not the same reason we are into cars. They like the tech, mostly. But also, there is some element of fun to driving a Tesla, especially a performance model, and they like it. Now driving is actually enjoyable!

Except...they don't realize they are new to the party and act all cool and macho because their car has a great party trick...acceleration. They don't realize there's much more to it than that, but because car mags have touted acceleration for so long, and their car not only is competitive but wins many battles, they think they are king of the hill. So they do dumb stuff. And yes, they do deserve mockery for it.

I still appreciate the Tesla, and I think the new Model 3 P is a feat of engineering. But it's not on the same level as the M3, and I think most people realize that... except the Curmudgeon!

So at the end of the day I do agree with you but I do have pity for some of them. At least the ones that can get their head out of their ass.

That's a broad paint brush you're using, but probably mostly correct. You're definitely right about this: affordable supercar power has an intoxicating effect.

We had the F80 comp manual and the Tesla Model 3 Performance at the same time. The F80 had some weaknesses - traction off the line, rubber-band feeling turbos, and a chassis that wasn't dialed in the same way the e90 was or the g80 after it. Going from the M3 to the Tesla felt like going from an airplane with all those buttons and switches and settings to a modern, simplified rocket ship.

Then the G80 came along, and all was right in the M3 world again with the option for x drive and still a manual and a RWD comp alternative. The chassis was better, the fake sound could be dialed off, and especially when the curved display came in LCI the car felt modern and sleek and a true performer. It even outdid the Tesla from a standstill. But at the time, the F80 felt... old. Now that I have hindsight, I know the Tesla was an inferior, poorly made vehicle.

But there is this wave online now against Tesla... and I'm part of it in a sense. I still appreciate the Tesla, and the new model 3 Performance is a feat of engineering.

But the G80 is on another level - and I think most people realize that. When I got my first Tesla model 3 perf, I would say it was an affordable McLaren. Now I know better.

[Diesel power]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Here's my take on Tesla owners....I actually take pity on them to a certain extent. Hear me out. They are insufferable. As an owner I fought so many battles on TOC and TOO forums. But I think I figured out why.

So you have a bunch of people who have, up until this point in life, been completely NOT into cars. Whatsoever. Like car = appliance. Now, they actually ARE into cars. Sure, much of it is not the same reason we are into cars. They like the tech, mostly. But also, there is some element of fun to driving a Tesla, especially a performance model, and they like it. Now driving is actually enjoyable!

Except...they don't realize they are new to the party and act all cool and macho because their car has a great party trick...acceleration. They don't realize there's much more to it than that, but because car mags have touted acceleration for so long, and their car not only is competitive but wins many battles, they think they are king of the hill. So they do dumb stuff. And yes, they do deserve mockery for it.

So at the end of the day I do agree with you but I do have pity for some of them. At least the ones that can get their head out of their ass.

I completely agree and have made similar comments myself. The majority of Tesla buyers (nowhere near all clearly) are coming from Priuses, Civic's etc. Tesla's are better in virtually every way than those cars so people start thinking it's the best car out there.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Diesel power

I completely agree and have made similar comments myself. The majority of Tesla buyers (nowhere near all clearly) are coming from Priuses, Civic's etc. Tesla's are better in virtually every way than those cars so people start thinking it's the best car out there.

Needsdecaf

Here’s some data that supports. Assume other is China brands and the smaller global brands like Nissan and Acura. An old study but a good sample size and a full year of data.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cust...ands-revealed/

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by z335is

I wouldn’t be so sure of that. Current gen already holds its own. New gen is almost entirely focused on track improvements.

i wouldn't be surprised either if the tesla can take out a g80cx on track or at least come extremely close. new 1/4 mile time is set to be close to 11.0 or better (same as the g80). the new motor has much more top end power. the weight is about the same as the g80. much lower center of mass. and instant throttle response.

i don't know many buyers that will sway though. probably not many. its not a good road trip car. its not a good track day car (probably 1 nurburgring lap and its done). its not an enthusiast car. its not a car someone aspires to own since it looks like the 100s of other base model 3's you see every day.

its a good quick daily driver. An appliance.

[Burrcold]

Honest question, do people actually track the Tesla M3P? It's been far too long that I've been to the track, so I'm genuinely curious.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Honest question, do people actually track the Tesla M3P? It's been far too long that I've been to the track, so I'm genuinely curious.

Here’s a thread by some of those who do. Using over half the battery to 2/3 of the battery in 15 minutes- better have a SC handy

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...ou-got.290097/

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I mean, outside of a Tesla club page, where do you expect any support for EV's on social media? Especially tired of the "microwave cooks faster but the grill tastes better" attempt at a comparison. Which is not apt whatsoever. I guarantee most of those commenters have never driven an EV of any kind. I wouldn't wipe my a@@ with these comments.



Yeah, except you forgot the fact that a Model 3 performance is only 60 lbs heavier than an M3 Comp xDrive. And it's 4,050, not 5,000 lbs. So by that measure, we shouldn't track our M3's either.

I never said current M3/M4 is a good car for tracking. It is as heavy as fuxx. There was an OP saying "the new Model 3 Performance is going to absolutely BURY a ton of performance cars that cost twice as much" and that is a joke.

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Honest question, do people actually track the Tesla M3P? It's been far too long that I've been to the track, so I'm genuinely curious.

I went tracking very frequently in the west coast at different locations. Only one location has one type 2 charging station. Good luck with charging up your EV

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i wouldn't be surprised either if the tesla can take out a g80cx on track or at least come extremely close. new 1/4 mile time is set to be close to 11.0 or better (same as the g80). the new motor has much more top end power. the weight is about the same as the g80. much lower center of mass. and instant throttle response.

i don't know many buyers that will sway though. probably not many. its not a good road trip car. its not a good track day car (probably 1 nurburgring lap and its done). its not an enthusiast car. its not a car someone aspires to own since it looks like the 100s of other base model 3's you see every day.

its a good quick daily driver. An appliance.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i wouldn't be surprised either if the tesla can take out a g80cx on track or at least come extremely close. new 1/4 mile time is set to be close to 11.0 or better (same as the g80). the new motor has much more top end power. the weight is about the same as the g80. much lower center of mass. and instant throttle response.

i don't know many buyers that will sway though. probably not many. its not a good road trip car. its not a good track day car (probably 1 nurburgring lap and its done). its not an enthusiast car. its not a car someone aspires to own since it looks like the 100s of other base model 3's you see every day.

its a good quick daily driver. An appliance.

The Model 3 sucks on track, but not for reasons you'd think. Those reasons are brakes and suspension. The suspension in the Model 3 is GOD AWFUL and the brakes are just an accident waiting to happen. Friend of mine is a huge track rat, PCA instructor, done multiple Porsche Track Experiences, Dirtfish, and has run a 997 Cup car for a few seasons. Currently tracks a GT3.

He has also tracked his Model 3 Performance as well as his Taycan. The above remarks i make about the Model 3 are based on his track experience with it, as well as mine as an owner.

The Taycan tracks extremely well. Right now it's limiting factor is thermals, as it cannot make a 20 minute session without thermal limiting. I believe the Taycan refresh has remedied this. Brakes he had PCCB's and it stopped fine but after I think 5 track days with it he was 3/4 of the way through the rotors so he stopped tracking it! But he continually impressed many instructors and fellow track rats with both it's agility as well as it's overall speed.

For the new Model 3 to come close to the G80 on track, they would have had to make SIGNIFICANT suspension improvements.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

For the new Model 3 to come close to the G80 on track, they would have had to make SIGNIFICANT suspension improvements.

Sounds like suspension, chassis, brakes all need significant improvements. I experienced this as well, although not on track - so not flat out for any length of time, other than mountain and canyon runs. Actually hard to make it to the canyon because after one 7.5 mile 1800 foot climb the car lost so much battery I made it back to the SC 70 miles away with 6 miles of range.

[bmwdrive]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

But there is this wave online now against Tesla... and I'm part of it in a sense. I still appreciate the Tesla, and the new model 3 Performance is a feat of engineering.

The wave against Tesla is the thing I don't like. It's a car manufacturer. They're very good at what they do. The vast, vast majority of Tesla drivers wouldn't even consider an M3. They want a comfortable, easy and cheap to operate commuter EV. The Tesla is great for that. It's very fast in a straight line and for road use is probably faster than most ICE cars. But it's not an enthusiast car and knocking it for that is kind of like complaining about gas mileage in an M3.

I'm about to get rid of my Tesla that I have driven for 80K miles. But I can totally see myself getting another one in the future. Not as a fun car, but as a super practical daily that can also fly off the line if I need it.

[gg15]

I recently moved and have 50-mile one way commute to work. After one day stuck in traffic 2.5 hours with my G80 manual, non-stop clutch in, 1-2, and back to neutral loop... I decided "f it I'll get a Tesla". So I went for the new model 3 (highland version) with FSD subscription. The delivery guy dropped off the car in driveway. The first minute in the car I noticed a high pitch metallic noise. It was loud enough for a cop rolling down windows to check what's going on. Thought it was a pebble in brakes but couldn't spot any. I took it to the service center - turned out the wheel assembly was not installed correctly. Apart from other smaller issues like one side of headlights is broken (won't turn on) and different parts of interior plastic noises, the car does what it supposed to - stress free driving from point A to point B. FSD drives itself, especially in stop and go traffic which is great.

I think there's something to be said about at least 25k price difference and overall build quality between new Tesla 3p vs. G8X - on paper the straight-line performance is identical, but I wouldn't trust the fit and finish on Tesla given the 3p is most likely built in the Fremont factory. I'm also curious about the rationale behind purchasing a "performance EV". The throttle response in my basic model 3 is near instant and brakes are fine. The suspension feels dialed in. Do people really take Tesla to canyons and tracks? Ok sorry for the rant

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by bmwdrive

The wave against Tesla is the thing I don't like. It's a car manufacturer. They're very good at what they do…
I'm about to get rid of my Tesla that I have driven for 80K miles. But I can totally see myself getting another one in the future. Not as a fun car, but as a super practical daily that can also fly off the line if I need it.

1) Elon is the problem that people have - I have an issue with the executive decisions being made and that includes removing the stalks and laying off the SC team

2) they’re very good at making efficient EVs with some quick and easy to use software. Beyond that, it’s questionable what they’re good at - besides mass production of vehicles and solar and energy storage and superchargers - the build quality and overall quality is questionable at best. I’ve had two Teslas so speaking to my experience.

3) before you buy another Tesla, try the other options especially from BMW. I’m blown away by the iXM60, and I never thought I’d say that.

BMW neue klasse will be interesting.

https://apple.news/AmoV18qH1R8iEmlIbfEcrIA

Porsche Macan is intriguing.

https://apple.news/ADH2xhu7mRFGvCGchlu4zqw

[bmwdrive]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

1) Elon is the problem that people have - I have an issue with the executive decisions being made and that includes removing the stalks and laying off the SC team

2) they’re very good at making efficient EVs with some quick and easy to use software. Beyond that, it’s questionable what they’re good at - besides mass production of vehicles and solar and energy storage and superchargers - the build quality and overall quality is questionable at best. I’ve had two Teslas so speaking to my experience.

3) before you buy another Tesla, try the other options especially from BMW. I’m blown away by the iXM60, and I never thought I’d say that.

BMW neue klasse will be interesting.

https://apple.news/AmoV18qH1R8iEmlIbfEcrIA

Porsche Macan is intriguing.

https://apple.news/ADH2xhu7mRFGvCGchlu4zqw

I take everything I hear about Elon with a big grain of salt. As far as the cars, I completely agree, I don’t like the removal of stalks. The stalks on my old Tesla are so simple and handy to use. I have no idea what problem they were trying to solve.

I think I also share your impression of the iXM60. I had a short test drive at a BMW event and I was blown away. The suspension was so much better than the Tesla, although I don’t have the air suspension. And the steering on the BMW actually felt pretty good to me. I don’t know why, but I really liked it. The only thing better with the Tesla is, well the price, and the supercharger network. I haven’t heard good things about non-Tesla chargers.

In any case, it will be a while before I consider another EV after my Tesla is gone. We will be an ICE car family again for a few years. The Neue Klasse maybe, in a few years. Maybe the charging network will be better sorted out by then.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by bmwdrive

I haven’t heard good things about non-Tesla chargers.

Maybe the charging network will be better sorted out by then.

TL;DR - EA has the advantage on charge rates, but disadvantage is less locations, less chargers at each location, and much higher cost.

We mostly charge at home, but I took advantage of the EA free charging yesterday. The navigation shows how many chargers are available - as does the app - but doesn’t tell how many people are en route. The app also shows if chargers are out of use and the max charge rate of each.

One thing I was pleasantly surprised by relative to the Tesla is the rate of charge is higher with higher SOC. With a larger battery in the iX v our Tesla, it only took 20 minutes to go from 44% to 80% - 40 kWh. This was at a 150 kW max station.

BMW at 150 kW charger
44% SOC: 150 kW
64% SOC: 121 kW
72% SOC: 104 kW

Tesla model Y at 250 kW charger
45% SOC: 137 kW
68% SOC: 74 kW

BMW also has plug and charge functionality, so once that’s set up in the car and through the myBMW app it’s a breeze. Just plug in and no 3rd party app necessary.

The problem with EA is the pricing is almost 2x the SC. If I wasn’t in a promotional period, I wouldn’t use these chargers unless absolutely necessary because it would be $55 for a full charge v $15 at home.