[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by adc

I wish BMW settled on a formula and then maximize the darn thing.

This is exactly what they did do. Chevy literally changed the corvette formula entirely (they basically built a ferrari), and Porsche put a 911 built engine into a different car (also a formula change).

BMW's formula has always been to take a base 3/4 series coupe as far as they can take it using what was available to them to maximize performance. They stuck true to that formula and this was the result.

That is actually sticking to a formula. I think when people say this they are really saying "oh i meant keep a high revving NA engine, but also turn it into a mid-engine sports car that weighs 2800 lbs and slap an m3 badge on it but only charge $10k over the base model".

[rush111]

My 2 cents…. Make sense to test cars “as is” in my view since OEM need to deliver on performance as well as on reliability and durability (which can be subjective I recognize). Put super agressive R tire (vs. stock PS4 let’s say) and the added cornering/straight line speed need to be handled by same stock suspension and breaking system. If that means that dics/pads need to be replaced at a small fraction of its “reasonable life”, not a fair comparaison on capability of the car IMHO.

[Neptune7]

Originally Posted by Savage_M3

That Panamera Turbo S time though... Wow, that is impressive...

I think the rear wheel steering helps a lot. Something the M cars do not come with.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by rush111

My 2 cents…. Make sense to test cars “as is” in my view since OEM need to deliver on performance as well as on reliability and durability (which can be subjective I recognize). Put super agressive R tire (vs. stock PS4 let’s say) and the added cornering/straight line speed need to be handled by same stock suspension and breaking system. If that means that dics/pads need to be replaced at a small fraction of its “reasonable life”, not a fair comparaison on capability of the car IMHO.

Not to mention potential oil starvation issues with higher G cornering than the car was designed for. Not many cars come with a dry sump set-up as standard these days.

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Would you buy a 200k+ CSL ? I mean buy it for real like some of us did with the CSL.

hahahaha, TRUTH.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by DM5PAV

Did you honestly just say that having every car with the same set of rubber is “user modified”.

Lol, BMW can’t even decide what rubber they put on cars and they ship sometimes with pirellis, sometimes Michelins.

That’s absurd.
I’m at a loss as to why anyone is defending C&D for something so sloppy it invalidates their testing methodology. They aren’t a group of guys getting together on Saturday to knock a few back and do some doughnuts.

Supposedly they are actual motoring journalists who are trying to provide useful information and comparisons so that their readers can make inform decisions based on their DATA.

This whole thing is silly, C&D is clearly wrong here. We’re talking a multimillion dollar publication and you think they can’t control for their rubber on the one time per year they do their LL?

Lol.

I realize that C&D ain’t R&T but still.

Your rant is silly. It’s no different than Porsche and other manufacturers. The 992 can come with three different tire brands; it’s a virtual lottery based on what’s available at the time your car is manufactured. You need a sedative!

[Gunnerforlife]

The fact that they didn't have time to familiarize themselves with the car because of the puncture should be a big factor, which they do mention below. This is a high-powered turbo rear-wheel front-engine car. You have to get used to it to push it to the limit. Add on top of that that they had a worn tire on the rear that does not match the specs of the other tires. Also, them not having time to adjust the MANUAL seat to their liking is on them really.


"Corralling all those ponies requires getting comfortable with the machine. You want a worn-in-Levi's feel, not that of a fresh pair of Wranglers. We never fully settled in, but that's not entirely the car's fault. A bolt punctured a rear tire before we started lapping, and we lost half a day of familiarization. The CSL is so new that finding a replacement BMW-spec Michelin Pilot Cup 2 R tire proved impossible, leaving us with three new tires and one slightly worn one for the final morning."

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife

The fact that they didn't have time to familiarize themselves with the car because of the puncture should be a big factor, which they do mention below. This is a high-powered turbo rear-wheel front-engine car. You have to get used to it to push it to the limit. Add on top of that that they had a worn tire on the rear that does not match the specs of the other tires. Also, them not having time to adjust the MANUAL seat to their liking is on them really.


"Corralling all those ponies requires getting comfortable with the machine. You want a worn-in-Levi's feel, not that of a fresh pair of Wranglers. We never fully settled in, but that's not entirely the car's fault. A bolt punctured a rear tire before we started lapping, and we lost half a day of familiarization. The CSL is so new that finding a replacement BMW-spec Michelin Pilot Cup 2 R tire proved impossible, leaving us with three new tires and one slightly worn one for the final morning."

+1

If this were a 911, people would graciously accept that very reasonable explanation…….but it’s not, so all reason gets jettisoned.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

+1

If this were a 911, people would graciously accept that very reasonable explanation…….but it’s not, so all reason gets jettisoned.

If it was a 911, people would say “OMG the seat has to be unbolted from the car to make an adjustment, that’s so hardcore! There are only 250 of these in the US, I’m going to pay 100k ADM and drive it each week to cars with coffee. Can I order one in PTS chromeflair hot magenta?”

[VR1]

GMs engineers are just on a different planet. Can't wait for the ZR1.

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

If it was a 911, people would say “OMG the seat has to be unbolted from the car to make an adjustment, that’s so hardcore! There are only 250 of these in the US, I’m going to pay 100k ADM and drive it each week to cars with coffee. Can I order one in PTS chromeflair hot magenta?”

hahahahahaha, truth! that is exactly the Porsche crowd. "look at my special PAINT TO SAMPLE. [Shade of black] is one of two in the world. it does the Nurburgring in x:xx.xx"

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by VR1

GMs engineers are just on a different planet. Can't wait for the ZR1.

Yeah the Z06 is fantastic. But let’s not act like GM did any original engineering. They basically tore down a 458 and said “how can we do this better and much cheaper at scale.” MSRP is $106,500, which is so incredibly inexpensive for what it gives you. It’s an AliExpress 458.

[flsupraguy]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Yeah the Z06 is fantastic. But let’s not act like GM did any original engineering. They basically tore down a 458 and said “how can we do this better and much cheaper at scale.” MSRP is $106,500, which is so incredibly inexpensive for what it gives you. It’s an AliExpress 458.

I'll give them a bit more credit than that but let's also remember Ferrari gave us the 458 nearly 10 years ago.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by flsupraguy

I'll give them a bit more credit than that but let's also remember Ferrari gave us the 458 nearly 10 years ago.

Things cost what they cost for a reason. Doesn’t mean it’s always a good reason or a reason people like, but it’s a reason nonetheless.

There is a reason an M4 CSL costs a $145k, because it takes a lot of engineering work and specified parts to make an M4 into something that leaves the factory doing 7:15 at the Nurburgring. That doesn’t mean everyone likes that explanation.

There is also a reason a z06 only costs 106,500 MSRP, ie GM will eventually build enough of these to achieve scale and they’ve likely cut enough corners in areas people don’t fixate on to make it happen. But they did a great job giving their customers what they wanted. No one seems to care that they completely changed their cars formula to get it there, but maybe that’s not why customers ever bought corvettes in the first place.

[VR1]

Yeah the Z06 is fantastic. But let’s not act like GM did any original engineering. They basically tore down a 458 and said “how can we do this better and much cheaper at scale.” MSRP is $106,500, which is so incredibly inexpensive for what it gives you. It’s an AliExpress 458.

As an engineer myself that is a way over simplification. That's like saying every mid-engined car is an AliExpress 458. Is the new Emira an AliExpress 458 aswell? Cars are benchmarked against each other all the time.

Lamborghini tore down a 458 when they made the Huracan, did they copy Ferrari?

Acura famously bought a 991 GT3 and tore it down. Is the NSX an AliExpress 911?

BMW tore down a C class when the 3 series was in production (and vice versa). Are they copies?

Porsche tore down a GTR when the 997 GT3RS was under development.. did they copy Nissan?

GM didn't copy a 458 chassis... that doesn't even make any sense... You would spend more in development copying a chassis and the resulting engineering hard points then you would developing a chassis yourself.

If anything GM spent more time developing the LT6 than BMW did the S58. The LT6 has been in development since 2015 and shares nothing with the LT2. Meanwhile the S58 is an evolution of the S55.

It seems next time BMW should copy GM's C7 GS. Who did GM copy back then when they made the C7 GS and C7 Z06 which still did the LL faster than the CSL?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by DM5PAV

BS, you’re telling me that they aren’t allowed to change the tires?

Who cares what it comes with, put whatever you want on it, and it keep it the same across all cars for a day… plan in advance, like the rest of the world has to do.

That’s a lame excuse blaming it on the manufacturer. They could easily schedule these runs in advance, know what cars they are running and place order for tires.

It should be standard practice on all their track days.

C&D can continue to post these silly ads for car makers and anyone who doesn’t want their bunghole fluffed can continue to not give a damn about their claimed times.

All respected publications worldwide test cars on their factory offered tires, that is what makes the most sense. Nothing unusual here, you’re the one in the left field.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

and Porsche put a 911 built engine into a different car (also a formula change).

You do realize these flat sixes are all basically variants of the same engine? No “formula change” applied here. What Porsche does is make engine variants that have very distinct personalities depending on the application (Carrera/turbo/GT)

It’s actually disappointing that BMW did nothing more than software tune to up the power on the CSL. They used to do more engineering than that to extract more power for their special editions.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by VR1

Yeah the Z06 is fantastic. But let’s not act like GM did any original engineering. They basically tore down a 458 and said “how can we do this better and much cheaper at scale.” MSRP is $106,500, which is so incredibly inexpensive for what it gives you. It’s an AliExpress 458.

As an engineer myself that is a way over simplification. That's like saying every mid-engined car is an AliExpress 458. Is the new Emira an AliExpress 458 aswell? Cars are benchmarked against each other all the time.

Lamborghini tore down a 458 when they made the Huracan, did they copy Ferrari?

Acura famously bought a 991 GT3 and tore it down. Is the NSX an AliExpress 911?

BMW tore down a C class when the 3 series was in production (and vice versa). Are they copies?

Porsche tore down a GTR when the 997 GT3RS was under development.. did they copy Nissan?

GM didn't copy a 458 chassis... that doesn't even make any sense... You would spend more in development copying a chassis and the resulting engineering hard points then you would developing a chassis yourself.

If anything GM spent more time developing the LT6 than BMW did the S58. The LT6 has been in development since 2015 and shares nothing with the LT2. Meanwhile the S58 is an evolution of the S55.

It seems next time BMW should copy GM's C7 GS. Who did GM copy back then when they made the C7 GS and C7 Z06 which still did the LL faster than the CSL?

Of course all companies benchmark and tear down their competitors.
But i've never seen any manufacturer as brazen as the way GM publicly stated how they were using the 458 as inspiration:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/44539/...rn-its-secrets

There is nothing wrong with this, and of course their engineers did tons of innovative stuff with the z06 engine and chassis.

But they were trying to give their customers the experience of GM's interpretation of a mid-engine italian sports car. No german or italian car manufacturer would ever have quotes like GM engineers have in that article.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by DM5PAV

Did you honestly just say that having every car with the same set of rubber is “user modified”.

Maybe this might help you out some:

Define Modified:

"having been changed slightly, usually to improve something or make it more acceptable: modified form/version"

Putting them all on MICHELIN Pilot® Sport Cup 2 R changes the OEM tires to improve performance in the cars that don't come with them standard or as an option.

If you put them all on MICHELIN Pilot® Sport 4 S changes the OEM tires to improve performance in the cars that don't come with them standard or as an option.

It also would have a negative effect on cars that come with or are optioned with MICHELIN Pilot® Sport Cup 2 R.

The whole matched tires thing is silly when compared with the stated goal of LL as changing to non provided tires is a modification by definition.

Car & Drivers goal "To make it fair, we chose to run cars the way a customer can buy them. Occasionally, that includes dealer accessories, any performance extras you'd need to re-create our times are added into what we call the Lightning Lap base price."

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

Yeah the Z06 is fantastic. But let’s not act like GM did any original engineering. They basically tore down a 458 and said “how can we do this better and much cheaper at scale.” MSRP is $106,500, which is so incredibly inexpensive for what it gives you. It’s an AliExpress 458.

Every Z06 since the C5 have been fantastic track weapons. Even the GS are pretty impressive, just look at that 2017 C7 GS’ time. The Camaros are pretty amazing track machines too, quite a few track buddies of mine run simple SS with the 1LE pack and they are pretty darn fast out of the box despite being quite down on power. I am not a fan of American cars, but we need to give those GM engineers the credit they deserve. They’re doing a better job than the ones at BMW these days.

[Sedoy]

...
2018 Porsche 911 GT3 - 2:47.0
2016 Porsche 911 GT3 RS - 2:47.0
2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport - 2:47.1
2016 McLaren 570S - 2:47.4
2024 BMW M4 CSL - 2:47.5
2015 Lamborghini Huracán LP 610-4 - 2:47.5
2021 Porsche Panamera Turbo S - 2:47.8 = Curb Weight: 4702 lb - Wait what ...?
2008 Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR - 2:48.6
...

[CanAutM3]

For reference: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/