[PLF69]

Originally Posted by supershaft

911T is almost like a poor man's GT3 as if 130-140k is poor but it's a much more fun car to drive than a CSL but definitely not as fast.

and frankly the 911 will hold value unlike the csl

You need to have driven a CSL to make this kind of comment. Wich you probably haven't or you wouldn't say it like that.

A 911T almost like a GT3... Come on dude, is a GTS a poor man's GT2RS ?

[flsupraguy]

Originally Posted by PLF69

You need to have driven a CSL to make this kind of comment. Wich you probably haven't or you wouldn't say it like that.

A 911T almost like a GT3... Come on dude, is a GTS a poor man's GT2RS ?

Having owned nearly 911 variant (gts, gt3, gt3rs, gt2rs) I can confidently say the carrera "t" is the most over-rated 911 ever UNLESS it is spec'd with carbon buckets and rear wheel steer.... and still it's over-rated. It is in no way close to a gt3 on track. Now, add a tune and coilovers to a m3 and you are 95% a CSL.....

[FTS]

I think the CSL is the bargain of post-pandemic era for sports cars.

The car that I always wanted to purchase, drive and keep was the 997 GT3 RS 4.0. That was a very special car, and I consider the 997 generation the best of GTs from Porsche.

The CSL is a better performer than that car. It is faster than that RS by over 10 sec on the Ring, even faster than the 991 GT3, faster than the 997 GT2 RS (and that was a ballistic car), on and on...

The 997 RS 4.0 was selling for over $200K when it got first released nearly 10 years ago. Collectors snatched it up. Nowadays, a base GT3 is about $200K MSRP optioned close to the CSL without luxury stuff on it. The 981 GT4s are dropping in value, and only the GT4 RS is holding value and increasing. I think this is important because the Porsche community knows their cars, and won't pay premiums for not-GT cars, and the 981 GT4 is really not a GT, a hybrid at best. All non-GT 911s won't even get into this comparison IMO.

The CSL is a road first, track second type of car, there is more than enough luxuries available, and the performance potential is more than respectable. It is not like the M4 GTS, which was too focused on track duties, and similarly it is more usable than the GT4 RS, which stickers for than $25K in MSRP over the CSL and most selling for over $200K. I don't know if CSL will hold value, but getting the level of performance the CSL offers at MSRP is pretty good value in today's market I think.

Considering the G8x platform, as ugly as it is, the CSL makes the best of it. Gets rid of all of the boring stuff, looks unique, seems to offer better connection to the driver, and is just limited in numbers. The premium over the commodity G8x is very reasonable I think. ADM, however, is never a good thing of course. At MSRP the car is a bargain.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by FTS

I think the CSL is the bargain of post-pandemic era for sports cars.

The car that I always wanted to purchase, drive and keep was the 997 GT3 RS 4.0. That was a very special car, and I consider the 997 generation the best of GTs from Porsche.

The CSL is a better performer than that car. It is faster than that RS by over 10 sec on the Ring, even faster than the 991 GT3, faster than the 997 GT2 RS (and that was a ballistic car), on and on...

The 997 RS 4.0 was selling for over $200K when it got first released nearly 10 years ago. Collectors snatched it up. Nowadays, a base GT3 is about $200K MSRP optioned close to the CSL without luxury stuff on it. The 981 GT4s are dropping in value, and only the GT4 RS is holding value and increasing. I think this is important because the Porsche community knows their cars, and won't pay premiums for not-GT cars, and the 981 GT4 is really not a GT, a hybrid at best. All non-GT 911s won't even get into this comparison IMO.

The CSL is a road first, track second type of car, there is more than enough luxuries available, and the performance potential is more than respectable. It is not like the M4 GTS, which was too focused on track duties, and similarly it is more usable than the GT4 RS, which stickers for than $25K in MSRP over the CSL and most selling for over $200K. I don't know if CSL will hold value, but getting the level of performance the CSL offers at MSRP is pretty good value in today's market I think.

Considering the G8x platform, as ugly as it is, the CSL makes the best of it. Gets rid of all of the boring [...]

Very good post, it's a great car at MSRP, our government "luxury tax" killed the interest around my area.

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by FTS

I think the CSL is the bargain of post-pandemic era for sports cars.

The car that I always wanted to purchase, drive and keep was the 997 GT3 RS 4.0. That was a very special car, and I consider the 997 generation the best of GTs from Porsche.

The CSL is a better performer than that car. It is faster than that RS by over 10 sec on the Ring, even faster than the 991 GT3, faster than the 997 GT2 RS (and that was a ballistic car), on and on...

The 997 RS 4.0 was selling for over $200K when it got first released nearly 10 years ago. Collectors snatched it up. Nowadays, a base GT3 is about $200K MSRP optioned close to the CSL without luxury stuff on it. The 981 GT4s are dropping in value, and only the GT4 RS is holding value and increasing. I think this is important because the Porsche community knows their cars, and won't pay premiums for not-GT cars, and the 981 GT4 is really not a GT, a hybrid at best. All non-GT 911s won't even get into this comparison IMO.

The CSL is a road first, track second type of car, there is more than enough luxuries available, and the performance potential is more than respectable. It is not like the M4 GTS, which was too focused on track duties, and similarly it is more usable than the GT4 RS, which stickers for than $25K in MSRP over the CSL and most selling for over $200K. I don't know if CSL will hold value, but getting the level of performance the CSL offers at MSRP is pretty good value in today's market I think.

Considering the G8x platform, as ugly as it is, the CSL makes the best of it. Gets rid of all of the boring stuff, looks unique, seems to offer better connection to the driver, and is just limited in numbers. The premium over the commodity G8x is very reasonable I think. ADM, however, is never a good thing of course. At MSRP the car is a bargain.

Each generation of cars are objectively better. Porsche GT cars certainly follow this path. Are they subjectively better? Depends on what the user values.

The 4.0 was a 2011 model and the demand was very different than what it is for current or recent GT cars.

It’s silly to say that the 981 GT4 isn’t a true GT car. For some reason, you’re ignoring the 982 version?

Pre pandemic, used GT3s and GT4s could be purchased below MSRP. Many of the recent GT cars are trending down - back closer to normal levels. It remains to be seen where they level off in the short term. But a 981 GT4 is still a good overall value and for someone who wants a true sports cars that is a third or fourth car (vs an awesome DD such as a M3/M4), a 981 or 982 GT4 are great choices. I know what I would choose.

[M4CompConv/X7]

Originally Posted by DO444

Lol, probably $200k
Those BaT folks are a bit more conservative than the average person walking into a bmw dealership with new money.

Not surprised this did not get bid higher.
I do think that’s about the right price though, that’s exactly what it should sell for to someone who really wants it. Anything more than that is going to be a financial drag real soon. No offense to the owners club. It’s a cool car, a very cool car, but we are still talking a bmw here at $135k.

These cars will be selling under $100k in 3-5yrs. A 2020 m4cs with 6k miles is currently selling for $70k on carfax.com. Didn’t look but I’m sure there’s more.

$15k more and I’m legit riding in a decently optioned 911s which will hold value better and is just not really in competition with the m4 regardless of trim imo. Yes you will have to wait a few years for that 911s to arrive new, but so what.

I have zero to gain by saying the M cars don’t hold value as I have one, but… that’s just reality. By and large none of these cars are going to be collectors items for at least another 25yrs, and maybe not ever.

I think at $135k you need to have F you money to invest in this brand. I felt kinda bad with my individual order at $115 and I think that’s the limit for me. No matter how many screens or how much individualization, I’ll never pay more than that for a BMW. I know there are others out there that do not feel that way and I am very happy with my purchase and don’t regret it, but $150k for an m3/4 is just way, way too much. No matter how much Hp or cool colors you got.

I really like the cars too, but let’s be honest here. This is the Toyota of Germany, not Ferrari of Italy. The pricing is getting to the realm of completely absurd imo.

I think it does the brand a disservice frankly. I’ve always appreciated BMW as the best financial decision a fan of German cars could make. At these prices that’s hard to maintain.

We have to remember that this is now M8 money range. CSL should be at $115k to $125k. NO MORE!

[M4CompConv/X7]

[QUOTE=DO444;30068110]If you find one let me know where!

I know I haven't been able to find at MSRP.
I look at Porsche 911s like a Rolex watch. It's a lot of money (even at MSRP) for the average consumer. But... Own it for 2-3 years and it will likely be worth MSRP or more!

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by M4CompConv/X7

I know I haven't been able to find at MSRP.
I look at Porsche 911s like a Rolex watch. It's a lot of money (even at MSRP) for the average consumer. But... Own it for 2-3 years and it will likely be worth MSRP or more!

Recency bias. ‘Regular’ 911’s depreciate. Often significantly. GT cars depreciate less.

[Studntloan]

Some of you weren't around or dont remember the GTS fiasco,

They were selling for 25-50K over msrp and then boom sitting on dealers lots,

I picked up mine for 10K under msrp brand new.

There are more csls than gts sitting as well,

These will start getting discounted to sell soon.

Im a buyer at around 100-110K

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by DO444

I really like the cars too, but let’s be honest here. This is the Toyota of Germany, not Ferrari of Italy. The pricing is getting to the realm of completely absurd imo.

I think it does the brand a disservice frankly. I’ve always appreciated BMW as the best financial decision a fan of German cars could make. At these prices that’s hard to maintain.

Toyota of Germany? Come on. That is ridiculous. BMW has ALWAYS been a luxury manufacturer of cars with sporting intent - Toyota most certainly is NOT that. Cars that are made to excite the driver, with the tag line Ultimate Driver's Machine. Toyota (bar a few exceptions) has been a manufacturer of white goods with all the driving intensity of a bar of soap.

The recent GR revival along with the AE86, MR2 , Celica GT4 and Supra are of course the exception that proves the rule.

Finally, I take it you have never driven the CSL - it's nothing like a normal M4 to drive and you would not be able to replicate the driving experience with upgraded dampers and a tune - to suggest that this is possible is to massively under-represent the CSL as a driving experience. But you know what? Keep drinking the coolaid.

[M3fanatic23]

Originally Posted by M4CompConv/X7

We have to remember that this is now M8 money range. CSL should be at $115k to $125k. NO MORE

Even the M8 is WAY overpriced.. If I had to pick between the two, CSL all day it's not even a close one

[FTS]

Originally Posted by BryanCO

The 4.0 was a 2011 model and the demand was very different than what it is for current or recent GT cars.

If I remember right, it actually came out in 2014 and that was the start of the crazy valuations on the GTs.

It’s silly to say that the 981 GT4 isn’t a true GT car. For some reason, you’re ignoring the 982 version?

I don't think I am ignoring them. The GT4 is a fine sports car, more than most people could handle it, but for it to be a true Porsche GT, it should have had a motorsport engine block and oiling system from the Cup car and RSR. It does not.

... a 981 GT4 is still a good overall value and for someone who wants a true sports cars that is a third or fourth car (vs an awesome DD such as a M3/M4), a 981 or 982 GT4 are great choices. I know what I would choose.

To me the CSL, not any other ///M, is the better choice. I guess I had my fill of Porsche GTs, they just don't excite me anymore, particularly the RS versions. They have become so uncompromisingly track-focused, they just don't represent a good value to me, even if I could afford to pay $250K for one. The CSL on the other hand, if there was one at list price, I'd buy it on the spot.

The attractiveness of the CSL, to me, is that it appears to be too much of a car for most drivers. I haven't driven one, so I am only guessing here. But to have a car in which you really have to bring all your driving ability and techniques to keep it on the road and makes you work hard to approach its ability is tremendously attractive. That is 'involvement' or 'connection' with the car.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

Toyota of Germany? Come on. That is ridiculous. BMW has ALWAYS been a luxury manufacturer of cars with sporting intent - Toyota most certainly is NOT that. Cars that are made to excite the driver, with the tag line Ultimate Driver's Machine. Toyota (bar a few exceptions) has been a manufacturer of white goods with all the driving intensity of a bar of soap.

The recent GR revival along with the AE86, MR2 , Celica GT4 and Supra are of course the exception that proves the rule.

Finally, I take it you have never driven the CSL - it's nothing like a normal M4 to drive and you would not be able to replicate the driving experience with upgraded dampers and a tune - to suggest that this is possible is to massively under-represent the CSL as a driving experience. But you know what? Keep drinking the coolaid.

Try to keep it civil sport.
Toyota can make race cars just as well as BMW, if they felt like it. You just listed 4 sporty models of Toyota (but there are more), now list 4 from BMW.

If you doubt that Toyota can make sports cars, or any Japanese manufacturer, then you’re drinking something and it’s probably not kool aid. What I said was not an insult at all. Toyota is a great car brand. Stop acting like a baby and getting hurty feelings.

BMW is not a niche car manufacturer. They are everywhere and they are going for volume, there is nothing wrong with that at all, good for them!

But to say that BMW is a luxury car maker that’s on another plane compared to a Japanese car manufacturer is weird to me. Do you know anything about Toyota at all?
It’s not just what you see in whatever town or city you live in. It’s not just an entry level Camry.

For the most part BMW has some entry level standard/luxury vehicles that are wholly uninteresting, and marginally better than a standard Toyota, and then the M cars that are very cool, but they aren’t THAT expensive or THAT luxurious. They are cars built to a price much like most other car manufacturers, and again nothing wrong with that at all.
Don’t get blinded by the roundel.

I’m simply explaining this isn’t any different than any other car manufacturer. BMW has targeted the enthusiast / entry level luxury market for a long time. Toyota is also targeting that same market at different price points, but they absolutely compete with each other, probably not much at the M3/4/5/8 range but they do everywhere else.

A BMW M4 is not really that much different than a optioned out high trim mustang and they are priced accordingly. Many people would argue for and prefer a Shelby mustang than an m4. I don’t see anything wrong with that argument.

I realize sometimes this forum thinks it is not so, and I don’t want to really get into this, but I don’t think it is crazy at all to say BMW is another Ford or Toyota. They are a very good car brand with a loyal following and they make great cars. They are also a volume seller, or trying to be at least, which again is great!

We’ve been through this before I’m sure. BMW is a luxury car to you and I agree that they make nice cars. Not sure why you take such an issue with being compared to Toyota, the largest manufacturer in the world who has dominated vehicle manufacturing for decades. Would you take issue being compared to Nissan?
Is the GTR just wholly below you?
I mean, it came out in what, 2007?
And the m3 is just now catching up to it in performance?

BMW is the “economical” German brand for the world. Just because a car is German does not automatically make it luxurious. The vast majority of what BMW sells are not much different than a Toyota or a Lexus. They don’t all come with 500hp and real leather, lsd, adjustable suspension, etc, etc. Toyota doesn’t make a car comparable to the M cars for our markets, but that’s not really because they can’t. It’s because people like you think the way you do… (which is good for BMW). Frankly, I don’t find THAT much difference in steering feel between a BMW and a Toyota nowadays. So, I wouldn’t be so quick to trash them.

I was in a Dodge RAM the other day that had a panoramic moon roof and a nice leather interior, a Dodge RAM... the tech wasn’t as good but it was a luxurious experience nonetheless, because all this stuff is figured out now. It costs $65,000.
Do you think RAM has a worse interior than a base m3?

It doesn’t.

Basic interior luxury has mostly been solved.

Car designs are not really that different nowadays. You can be sure that those nice pickups you see riding around are not all that different than a standard Mercedes inside. You can think they are, but that’s brand snobbery because they aren’t. The world has caught up to the Germans in many aspects.

The car world has changed so much. This is not 1980, where truly the only car manufacturer in the world that you’d want to own at a reasonable price is a German car. The rest of the world caught up. It’s no longer the BMW 3 series, a Mercedes and a Ford Escort.

No, I’ve never driven a csl. I honestly don’t care that much. If I wanted one I’d have one. I don’t believe you that there is anything special about a csl that cannot be achieved on an M3/4cx with some money. I don’t give a damn about the csl. I think it is ugly and I don’t even want it. This is not about money. I don’t like the look of the csl. That paint job is ugly af. I love my m3, and it is more capable than I thought it would be, but I still see it as a family car that can shred. I really don’t even see BMW as full luxury or race brand. I just bought a bmw, but I very nearly bought a mustang or was going to wait for one, but I needed to seat 5. I definitely was cross shopping them. I do think most people feel the same about the brand and that’s fine. Most people I have spoken with see the brand in flux, to put it nicely. They aren’t sure what BMW is or is going to be.

As to the csl, none of this stuff is secret, none of it is special. This has all been figured out and achieved, the aftermarket is very healthy and you have so many options from so many brands. The first thing half the people do on here is dump the standard exhaust and get a new one, then they adjust the suspension, etc. personally, I’d rather have a nicely optioned aftermarket car than the csl, and if you’d rather not that’s totally fine… but I think you are crazy if you think the csl is on another planet.

The guys who act like a different trim model of the same car is on another planet from all the other trims… idk, maybe you’re fooling someone somewhere but I doubt it. You can make a tuned m4cx go faster than a stock csl and someone will, guaranteed. Either way, it’s still not going to corner like a 911 or a 718… so who cares?

I sat in a base 718 and a gt4rs and the interior experience was 95% similar. The cars you are talking about share 95% the same parts and the same engine. I don’t mean to hurt your feelings or anything but… BMW makes some cool cars, the vast majority of them are boring and uninteresting though. So why such offense at being compared to another successful car brand?

Don’t be upset or silly about this. German car interiors are ostensibly worse than some Lexus interiors. We are talking apples to apples here. You got Mercedes, Porsche, and BMW… BMW has always been the most bang for your buck. They have more sportiness than a Lexus, but not a ton more. Whether they have more luxury is up to the individual but in some cases arguably no, they don’t. I would take a leather Lexus interior over a sensatech interior every single day of the week.

I think BMW are trying to elevate the brand to prices it just doesn’t make any sense to me. Let go of that brand snobbery. I say this as someone who really likes BMW cars, but I think the brand snobbery is dumb. If this was 1980, sure you have a point, but it’s not.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by DO444

Try to keep it civil sport.
Toyota can make race cars just as well as BMW, if they felt like it. You just listed 4 sporty models of Toyota (but there are more), now list 4 from BMW.

If you doubt that Toyota can make sports cars, or any Japanese manufacturer, then you’re drinking something and it’s probably not kool aid. What I said was not an insult at all. Toyota is a great car brand. Stop acting like a baby and getting hurty feelings.

BMW is not a niche car manufacturer. They are everywhere and they are going for volume, there is nothing wrong with that at all, good for them!

But to say that BMW is a luxury car maker that’s on another plane compared to a Japanese car manufacturer is weird to me. Do you know anything about Toyota at all?
It’s not just what you see in whatever town or city you live in. It’s not just an entry level Camry.

For the most part BMW has some entry level standard/luxury vehicles that are wholly uninteresting, and marginally better than a standard Toyota, and then the M cars that are very cool, but they aren’t THAT expensive or THAT luxurious. They are cars built to a price much like most other car manufacturers, and again nothing wrong with that at all.
Don’t get blinded by the roundel.

I’m simply explaining this isn’t any different than any other car manufacturer. BMW has targeted the enthusiast / entry level luxury market for a long time. Toyota is also targeting that same market at different price points, but they absolutely compete with each other, probably not much at the M3/4/5/8 range but they do everywhere else.

A BMW M4 is not really that much different than a optioned out high trim mustang and they are priced accordingly. Many people would argue for and prefer a Shelby mustang than an m4. I don’t see anything wrong with that argument.

I realize sometimes this forum thinks it is not so, and I don’t want to really get into this, but I don’t think it is crazy at all to say BMW is another Ford or Toyota. They are a very good car brand with a loyal following and they make great cars. They are also a volume seller, or trying to be at least, which again is great!

We’ve been through this before I’m sure. BMW is a luxury car to you and I agree that they make nice cars. Not sure why you take such an issue with being compared to Toyota, the largest manufacturer in the world who has dominated vehicle manufacturing for decades. Would you take issue being compared to Nissan?
Is the GTR just wholly below you?
I mean, it came out in what, 2007?
And the m3 is just now catching up to it in performance?

BMW is the “economical” German brand for the world. Just because a car is German does not automatically make it luxurious. The vast majority of what BMW sells are not much different than a Toyota or a Lexus. They don’t all come with 500hp and real leather, lsd, adjustable suspension, etc, etc. Toyota doesn’t make a car comparable to the M cars for our markets, but that’s not really because they can’t. It’s because people like you think the way you do… (which is good for BMW). Frankly, I don’t find THAT much difference in steering feel between a BMW and a Toyota nowadays. So, I wouldn’t be so quick to trash them.

I was in a Dodge RAM the other day that had a panoramic moon roof and a nice leather interior, a Dodge RAM... the tech wasn’t as good but it was a luxurious experience nonetheless, because all this stuff is figured out now. It costs $65,000.
Do you think RAM has a worse interior than a base m3?

It doesn’t.

Basic interior luxury has mostly been solved.

Car designs are not really that different nowadays. You can be sure that those nice pickups you see riding around are not all that different than a standard Mercedes inside. You can think they are, but that’s brand snobbery because they aren’t. The world has caught up to the Germans in many aspects.

The car world has changed so much. This is not 1980, where truly the only car manufacturer in the world that you’d want to own at a reasonable price is a German car. The rest of the world caught up. It’s no longer the BMW 3 series, a Mercedes and a Ford Escort.

No, I’ve never driven a csl. I honestly don’t care that much. If I wanted one I’d have one. I don’t believe you that there is anything special about a csl that cannot be achieved on an M3/4cx with some money. I don’t give a damn about the csl. I think it is ugly and I don’t even want it. This is not about money. I don’t like the look of the csl. That paint job is ugly af. I love my m3, and it is more capable than I thought it would be, but I still see it as a family car that can shred. I really don’t even see BMW as full luxury or race brand. I just bought a bmw, but I very nearly bought a mustang or was going to wait for one, but I needed to seat 5. I definitely was cross shopping them. I do think most people feel the same about the brand and that’s fine. Most people I have spoken with see the brand in flux, to put it nicely. They aren’t sure what BMW is or is going to be.

As to the csl, none of this stuff is secret, none of it is special. This has all been figured out and achieved, the aftermarket is very healthy and you have so many options from so many brands. The first thing half the people do on here is dump the standard exhaust and get a new one, then they adjust the suspension, etc. personally, I’d rather have a nicely optioned aftermarket car than the csl, and if you’d rather not that’s totally fine… but I think you are crazy if you think the csl is on another planet.

The guys who act like a different trim model of the same car is on another planet from all the other trims… idk, maybe you’re fooling someone somewhere but I doubt it. You can make a tuned m4cx go faster than a stock csl and someone will, guaranteed. Either way, it’s still not going to corner like a 911 or a 718… so who cares?

I sat in a base 718 and a gt4rs and the interior experience was 95% similar. The cars you are talking about share 95% the same parts and the same engine. I don’t mean to hurt your feelings or anything but… BMW makes some cool cars, the vast majority of them are boring and uninteresting though. So why such offense at being compared to another successful car brand?

Don’t be upset or silly about this. German car interiors are ostensibly worse than some Lexus interiors. We are talking apples to apples here. You got Mercedes, Porsche, and BMW… BMW has always been the most bang for your buck. They have more sportiness than a Lexus, but not a ton more. Whether they have more luxury is up to the individual but in some cases arguably no, they don’t. I would take a leather Lexus interior over a sensatech interior every single day of the week.

I think BMW are trying to elevate the brand to prices it just doesn’t make any sense to me. Let go of that brand snobbery. I say this as someone who really likes BMW cars, but I think the brand snobbery is dumb. If this was 1980, sure you have a point, but it’s not.

I don't have hurt feelings - I never said anything about Toyota not being able to make race cars, I said that most of the cars they make are white goods. Outside of GR, there are a ton of absolute dross cars. BMWs of any flavour have been built to please the driver - that's their ethos and you can sense it in any of their cars. I owned a 320d and that car was still a driver's car. Toyota's equivalent Camry is just garbage. Now the GR86 is an exceptional car, one of the best cars I have driven. However, I do not pass judgement on pretty much anything without actual experience, whereas you are quite happy to pass off your judgement as if you have actual experience which is not true.

Most people who say CSL is just a tune and suspension upgrade haven't actually experienced the car and this is a massively disingenuous description of the car.

I have owned some lovely cars including Porsche GT product and driven plenty more and I can categorically state that the CSL deserves comparison to Porsche's GT products even it isn't quite as good as those cars.

Yes I've driven the Nissan GTR and it's not a car that works for me primarily because the damping is awful below 50mph, once above that it's brilliant but there are plenty of other issues with it that would stop me from buying it and yes interior quality is one of those things.

I don't care whether you believe me or not, my view is that the CSL is an excellent car. The mixed reviews in the UK are a result of being tested in crappy UK weather (and poor driving ability). The headlines might as well have said "550HP RWD car on summer tyres in lack of traction on cold wet roads shocker!"

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by HudsonHornett

I don't have hurt feelings - I never said anything about Toyota not being able to make race cars, I said that most of the cars they make are white goods. Outside of GR, there are a ton of absolute dross cars. BMWs of any flavour have been built to please the driver - that's their ethos and you can sense it in any of their cars. I owned a 320d and that car was still a driver's car. Toyota's equivalent Camry is just garbage. Now the GR86 is an exceptional car, one of the best cars I have driven. However, I do not pass judgement on pretty much anything without actual experience, whereas you are quite happy to pass off your judgement as if you have actual experience which is not true.

Most people who say CSL is just a tune and suspension upgrade haven't actually experienced the car and this is a massively disingenuous description of the car.

I have owned some lovely cars including Porsche GT product and driven plenty more and I can categorically state that the CSL deserves comparison to Porsche's GT products even it isn't quite as good as those cars.

Yes I've driven the Nissan GTR and it's not a car that works for me primarily because the damping is awful below 50mph, once above that it's brilliant but there are plenty of other issues with it that would stop me from buying it and yes interior quality is one of those things.

I don't care whether you believe me or not, my view is that the CSL is an excellent car. The mixed reviews in the UK are a result of being tested in crappy UK weather (and poor driving ability). The headlines might as well have said "550HP RWD car on summer tyres in lack of traction on cold wet roads shocker!"

As I just sold my CSL, I don't think its something that can be achieved with a tune and via the aftermarket. The car drives like it is very clearly rose jointed in order to maximize traction without a wing on Cup2 or better track tires. Alot of craftsmanship goes into that, if not a lot of engineering (some people could say BMW has rose jointed the last 2 GTSs, so its their go-to move to increase traction). But you can't replicate that with a HAS kit and a chip.

Personally, I didn't think it was an excellent car but the reasons are much more nuanced. I thought the shift feedback was inauthentic (i.e. BMW tried to artificially create emotive ZF shifts and i think they actually spent a non-trivial amount of money doing that via transmission tuning and transmission mounts and chassis mounting). I think they ultimately left performance and driving experience and proper emotive tuning (i.e. induction noise) off the table to add in marketing elements like the decklid spoiler, exposed carbon hood, etc.

It reminds me of what Porsche did with the Sport Classic. The created an anniversary edition that had amazing performance, but also prioritized anniversary bits because it was the 50 years of M. Good car, but ultimately not as good as the recent CS cars and the GTS cars.

Thats my objective 2 cents, very grateful i had the opportunity to buy and own one. And i don't think i'd be comfortable with a regular M4C if it was significantly less visceral as I didn't think the M4 CSL was that rough and hardcore to live with.

I think alot of the hate from people on these threads rooting against the value of the car is weird. Wouldn't happen with any other brand.

[DO444]

All good.
I see you’re passionate.
We disagree.

Porsche are a different car altogether.
I like BMW for what it is, but for me it’s much closer to a Toyota than a Porsche… which is not to say that a Porsche is better.

I’d usually rather be in a Toyota, or a BMW.
Porsche is a lot of work. It’s a stressful car to be in because it’s quite performance oriented. I think that gets conflated with better, but honestly it’s just different to me. Many times it is not better, like when I’m tired and just want to get somewhere lol. Obviously I’m talking about mt Porsche sports cars, suv and even pdk are much less stressful or interesting to me.

These are just my opinions after my limited experiences. BMW is not really any more or less than another good carmaker in my opinion. The m3 is VERY fast, and the suspension is tight. It still doesn’t really feel like super luxurious or very sporty to me. I like to go places in it though. It’s a nice car. I think brand snobbery (no offense, maybe brand preference is a better phrase) plays a part in what you are saying.

I don’t think it’s offensive or even unreasonable to compare BMW / Ford / Toyota. The large lot of 3/4/5 series cars aren’t any more interesting to me than a Toyota/Lexus on a scale of “ultimate driving machine”. I guess we’ll have to disagree on that.

Anyway, no harm no foul eh?

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by DO444

All good.
I see your passionate.
We disagree.

Porsche are a different car altogether.
I like BMW for what it is, but for me it’s much closer to a Toyota than a Porsche… which is not to say that a Porsche is better.

I’d usually rather be in a Toyota, or a BMW.
Porsche is a lot of work. It’s a stressful car to be in because it’s quite performance oriented. I think that gets conflated with better, but honestly it’s just different to me. Many times it is not better, like when I’m tired and just want to get somewhere lol. Obviously I’m talking about mt Porsche sports cars, suv and even pdk are much less stressful or interesting to me.

These are just my opinions after my limited experiences. BMW is not really any more or less than another good carmaker in my opinion. The m3 is VERY fast, and the suspension is tight. It still doesn’t really feel like super luxurious or very sporty to me. I like to go places in it though. It’s a nice car. I think brand snobbery (no offense, maybe brand preference is a better phrase) plays a part in what you are saying.

I don’t think it’s offensive or even unreasonable to compare BMW / Ford / Toyota. The large lot of 3/4/5 series cars aren’t any more interesting to me than a Toyota/Lexus on a scale of “ultimate driving machine”. I guess we’ll have to disagree on that.

Anyway, no harm no foul eh?

I’ve had some Porsches and BMWs and I prefer M cars personally. The recipe of converting a regular car into a performance car creates a very unique driving experience that’s both familiar and special at the same time.

BMW has made some amazing M cars and some truly bad ones (X4M for example, apologies to anyone offended).

But I do not think everyone just buy M cars on their way to buying Porsches or cause they need backseats. Some people truly love the thrills they provide.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

I’ve had some Porsches and BMWs and I prefer M cars personally. The recipe of converting a regular car into a performance car creates a very unique driving experience that’s both familiar and special at the same time.

BMW has made some amazing M cars and some truly bad ones (X4M for example, apologies to anyone offended).

But I do not think everyone just buy M cars on their way to buying Porsches or cause they need backseats. Some people truly love the thrills they provide.

All of this will be turned on it’s head when electric dominates. Hp is quickly becoming irrelevant, and then there will really be so little to differentiate a BMW from a Lexus (Toyota).

That doesn’t bother me frankly.
It’s just fine.

Who knows, maybe the m3/4 stay ICE and focus on sports car enthusiasts, but I doubt it. I think they go electric and become truly just another car that goes fast. I’m just saying this with zero emotion. I have no brand loyalty at all.

[ScullyD]

Originally Posted by DO444

All of this will be turned on it’s head when electric dominates. Hp is quickly becoming irrelevant, and then there will really be so little to differentiate a BMW from a Lexus (Toyota).

That doesn’t bother me frankly.
It’s just fine.

Who knows, maybe the m3/4 stay ICE and focus on sports car enthusiasts, but I doubt it. I think they go electric and become truly just another car that goes fast. I’m just saying this with zero emotion. I have no brand loyalty at all.

I’m hoping that’s not the case, cause the iX I have is absotlely a wonderful driving experience (amazing chassis and steering for what it is).

BMW engine note has not been a reason to buy a BMW for a long time (since the e92). Some of the best BMWs (e30, 1M, M2 CS, M5 CS) sound kind of meh. BMW M is all about chassis balance.

Toyota has produced cars with great balance (new GR86, MR2 spyder) but it’s rare.

It’s a tough comparison, BMW’s secret sauce doesn’t die with ICE. Porsche’s kind of does though.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by ScullyD

I’m hoping that’s not the case, cause the iX I have is absotlely a wonderful driving experience (amazing chassis and steering for what it is).

BMW engine note has not been a reason to buy a BMW for a long time (since the e92). Some of the best BMWs (e30, 1M, M2 CS, M5 CS) sound kind of meh. BMW M is all about chassis balance.

Toyota has produced cars with great balance (new GR86, MR2 spyder) but it’s rare.

It’s a tough comparison, BMW’s secret sauce doesn’t die with ICE. Porsche’s kind of does though.

Well, I totally agree with that.
A Porsche has to have a manual trans and an engine or it’s not going to be interesting at all (to me).

And, I agree with you on the BMW too because I already don’t really buy BMW to race cars. It’s just a tight, fun, family cruiser (for me). That will not die going EV… but I will avoid it if possible.

Idk though, I could go to a Porsche suv for that I guess and it could be electric and it’ll be fine. Porsche already made the transition and they’ll be ok. The vast majority of their sales are SUV and they are proud of that.

I guess we’ll all be competing for the same cars pretty soon, and they’ll all be used lol.

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by FTS

If I remember right, it actually came out in 2014 and that was the start of the crazy valuations on the GTs.


I don't think I am ignoring them. The GT4 is a fine sports car, more than most people could handle it, but for it to be a true Porsche GT, it should have had a motorsport engine block and oiling system from the Cup car and RSR. It does not.


To me the CSL, not any other ///M, is the better choice. I guess I had my fill of Porsche GTs, they just don't excite me anymore, particularly the RS versions. They have become so uncompromisingly track-focused, they just don't represent a good value to me, even if I could afford to pay $250K for one. The CSL on the other hand, if there was one at list price, I'd buy it on the spot.

The attractiveness of the CSL, to me, is that it appears to be too much of a car for most drivers. I haven't driven one, so I am only guessing here. But to have a car in which you really have to bring all your driving ability and techniques to keep it on the road and makes you work hard to approach its ability is tremendously attractive. That is 'involvement' or 'connection' with the car.

As previously stated, the 4.0 is/was a 2011 model. The 991.1 GT3 was introduced in 2014.

[BryanCO]

Wow, so much to read!

Like many here, I’ve been a long time BMW owner with my first BMW being a ‘78 320i purchased when I was in college (a long time ago).

We all generally agree that BMW makes a lot of great products that we are passionate about but, their brand, product line, etc. is so diluted from the pursuit of sales growth that even the M cars (oh, ya, they make M SUVs…) are compromised. So I applaud BMW for trying with more focused M cars but based on their newest M car (the M2), I think they are still trying to reignite their core enthusiast part of the brand.