[jmg]

Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS

The relevant flaw here is that there was an attempt to compare the percentages across datapoints. That approach delivered misleading information that falsely implied a mass shift from ICE to BEV when in actuality BEV is still a small portion of private vehicle sales.

You cannot statistically extract a market trend without two or more temporal reference points. A percentage growth or shrinkage is merely a way to express the change between those reference points.

[MadBimmeRad]

This should wake some folks up

https://www.drive.com.au/news/new-ze...road-user-tax/

[M4ord]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

This should wake some folks up

https://www.drive.com.au/news/new-ze...road-user-tax/

Quick math...AUD $0.073/km x 500KM = AUD $36.50

convert to your favorite currency

23.50 US
22.00 Euro

At least its cheaper than gas....right?

[MadBimmeRad]

That's not the price of electricity recharge; it is the tax you have to pay to drive your EV on the road

[Quadruple VANOS]

Originally Posted by jmg

You cannot statistically extract a market trend without two or more temporal reference points. A percentage growth or shrinkage is merely a way to express the change between those reference points.

Again, using percentage growth across these two datapoints delivers a misleading narrative. The difference of volume is too great to provide a clear picture, but i don’t think a clear picture is what people are trying to accomplish here. Otherwise we’d be looking at the volume of units sold and clearly noticing how relatively small BEV sales volume remains.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS

The difference of volume is too great to provide a clear picture

Can you elaborate?

Originally Posted by Quadruple VANOS

Otherwise we’d be looking at the volume of units sold and clearly noticing how relatively small BEV sales volume remains.

Yes, BEV volume sales is less than ICE volume sales. However, the poster was trying to express how BEV sales have gone up and ICE sales have gone down from 2021 to 2022. I'm not sure I understand where the objection of using these figures are coming from besides that they don't support an anti-BEV narrative.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

This should wake some folks up

https://www.drive.com.au/news/new-ze...road-user-tax/

We all knew this was coming. Drivers will be taxed, ICE or BEV. Roads need to be maintained and it isn't free.

[bigjae1976]

If this thing can pivot steer, I’m in. How cool would that be?

I really want to see a ridiculous I4 ICE with almost 400 hp + hybrid drive in a car that weighs less than 3500lbs.

It will be tricky to drive to oh well.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

If this thing can pivot steer, I’m in. How cool would that be?

I really want to see a ridiculous I4 ICE with almost 400 hp + hybrid drive in a car that weighs less than 3500lbs.

It will be tricky to drive to oh well.

Read all the C63 reviews. It's not just the weight they are complaining about.

[msej449]

‘using percentage growth across these two datapoints delivers a misleading narrative. The difference of volume is too great to provide a clear picture, but i don’t think a clear picture is what people are trying to accomplish here. Otherwise we’d be looking at the volume of units sold and clearly noticing how relatively small BEV sales volume remains.’

That's why I listed the 2023 YTD unit sales numbers as well. Which show pure electric at 17,294 units and petrol at 58,973 units. This is hardly 'relatively small' at 5 fully-electric cars for every 17 petrol cars sold. I suspect that no matter what sales numbers I provide, you're going to feel that they're unrepresentative of a trend I claim, which is that more people every year are buying EVs rather than ICEVs. In a market where there are no government incentives, direct or indirect, to do so. And if they're like me, it's not because of any environmental considerations, it's because when I crunched the numbers the EV came out cheaper to service and fuel than the petrol or diesel version. After 2 years, the EV price premium was written off by fuel and service cost savings. After 3 years, the home charge point cost was written off. After 12 years, the cost of the entire car was written off. It was a no-brainer.

We seem to be debating two things here. The first is whether the electric M3 is a positive advance on the petrol version: this is surely going to be down to personal preference and feelings. And as I've said, I fully understand long-term M3 owners feeling that it's not, and that an electric M3 is just too radical a departure in the wrong direction. I wouldn't disagree with this conclusion for those who come to it. For me, it's seems like a very interesting advance and a great counter to the rather bland designs that are so common in the EV world currently. But yes, one thing it isn't is an evolution of a petrol drivetrain and that's going to divide opinion sharply. With Jaguar the last 'real' sprts car they produced was the E-Type, so it may be that the current petrol M3 is the last 'real' sports car that we're going to see from BMW.

The second theme seems to be that the EV M3 is something produced soley as a result of a government conspiracy to artifically boost EV acquisition in order to persue some hidden agenda. And that but for this, BMW would never have come up with it and that it represents a perversion of the pure 'M' design spirit. If this is how people really feel, my counter is to cite the case of the UK, where there are no incentives, subsidies or taxes that favour people buying EV over ICE and yet more and more people are doing so. But if that evidence doesn't convince, then I'm not sure what more there is to do other than re-state it.

[msej449]

@MadBimmeRad‘Thank you for a comprehensive breakdown. Any chance you could also provide similar figures for India or Bangladesh or Indonesia?’

Sadly not. It was difficult enough to wade through all the information just to get a good picture for the UK. But I understand your question and the answer would certainly be interesting because the market isn't just the USA or UK or Europe. And my personal bugbear is that a lot of US/Europe discussions tend to ignore China, where a lot of the evolution of EVs is going on. Tesla tends to dominate US discussions because of their big market share and success as a semi-monopoly, which perhaps skews the landscape for American buyers, who seem starved of the product choice we have in Europe, and sound ambivalent about their government's attempts to catch up.

I don't think it will benefit anyone other than China if they manage to do to the US motor industry what Japan and Germany did to it back in the 1970s. And for APACs it poses the question of whether or not it might be better to align themselves with China rather than Europe/US as the Chinese get closer to their aim of dominating world EV production. The same situation (of Chinese strategy for global domination) is emerging in terms of microchip development and production, but isn't the subject of that much discussion on public forums (it's not just that 90%+ of iPhones are assembled in China, it's also the supply chain and the component chip technologies that are there as well).

As for your correction of my earlier post, yes, that’s fair, BMW isn’t passive in its vehicle design strategy. Back in the 1960s/70s Detroit was all about V6s and V8s. The idea of 4-cyl turbo engines was anathema. German and Japanese small engined cars were reviled. But who won that battle? Go to the 2 Series segment of the forum today, and it’s the US members who are extolling the virtues of the (4-cyl turbo) 230i and arguing that my 6-cyl M235i is inferior on both road and track.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by msej449

@MadBimmeRad‘Thank you for a comprehensive breakdown. Any chance you could also provide similar figures for India or Bangladesh or Indonesia?’

Sadly not. It was difficult enough to wade through all the information just to get a good picture for the UK. But I understand your question and the answer would certainly be interesting because the market isn't just the USA or UK or Europe. And my personal bugbear is that a lot of US/Europe discussions tend to ignore China, where a lot of the evolution of EVs is going on. Tesla tends to dominate US discussions because of their big market share and success as a semi-monopoly, which perhaps skews the landscape for American buyers, who seem starved of the product choice we have in Europe, and sound ambivalent about their government's attempts to catch up.

I don't think it will benefit anyone other than China if they manage to do to the US motor industry what Japan and Germany did to it back in the 1970s. And for APACs it poses the question of whether or not it might be better to align themselves with China rather than Europe/US as the Chinese get closer to their aim of dominating world EV production. The same situation (of Chinese strategy for global domination) is emerging in terms of microchip development and production, but isn't the subject of that much discussion on public forums (it's not just that 90%+ of iPhones are assembled in China, it's also the supply chain and the component chip technologies that are there as well).

As for your correction of my earlier post, yes, that’s fair, BMW isn’t passive in [...]

It's very refreshing to have a conversation with someone such as yourself, which is based on logic and respects.

Thank you for making it a pleasure discussing this issue with you rationally and respectfully.

[PfizerP]

Any idea if or when BMW M will confirm the next M3 is electric only?

[Ilyam5]

I truly admire the engineering effort but the results speak for themselves
Fast forward to 1;14 at the end.
Best design in the world now - 1/4 million dollar car requires a generator that runs on diesel with portable dc charger 100k at least
To run 1 lap at hot track. That is the reality now

[hova00]

I’ll just leave this here.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technolo...m-modern-times

[hova00]

And let’s not forget this.

https://youtu.be/TaaSRcK-r14?si=3g3QFbqIjem-Bp5v

[Jsmith007]

Originally Posted by Burn-N-AZ

250 to 300 miles gets you through most European countries. 250 to 300 miles won’t get you out of most states in the USA.

US drivers log twice as many miles per year than most Europeans.

https://frontiergroup.org/resources/...ns-drive-most/

It’s really an apples/oranges situation with privately owned vehicles.

180 miles round trip gets from from Pennsylvannia to Maryland to Northern Virginia and back to PA without having to rechgarge AND starting off only at 80% charge - on a BMW i4 M50. Thanks for the misleading links.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Jsmith007

180 miles round trip gets from from Pennsylvannia to Maryland to Northern Virginia and back to PA without having to rechgarge AND starting off only at 80% charge - on a BMW i4 M50. Thanks for the misleading links.

Welcome to bimmerpost

What was misleading about which link please?

[indesj01]

that thing looks like an old pontiac sedan it's absolutely atrocious

[secretariat]

Originally Posted by jmg

We all knew this was coming. Drivers will be taxed, ICE or BEV. Roads need to be maintained and it isn't free.

Roads need to be maintained? That's a good one thanks for the laugh.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by secretariat

Roads need to be maintained? That's a good one thanks for the laugh.

Not sure if being sarcastic and at this point im afraid to ask.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by hova00

I’ll just leave this here.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technolo...m-modern-times

This is a complete anomaly. What a hatchet job of an article. There is so much complete bullish!t in this article it’s infuriating. No one is FORCED to spend $10,000 on chargers. “The vehicle comoelled him”. Hahaha. Bull shizzle. And if you have to spend $6,000 on electrical panel upgrades to charge at home….you shouldn’t buy an EV.

Sorry, that article is COMPLETE and utter FUD.

Do EV’s require a learning curve? Absolutely. Would I recommend one for someone who wants to treat it like a regular car? Absolutely not. We aren’t there yet. Do I think these lawmakers should roll back their ridiculous goals of banning ICE cars? Absolutely, it’s stupid. But these idiotic attempts to lampoon EV’s are ignorant. It is entirely possible to do multi state road trips in EV’s with a bare minimum of planning and research. There is ample evidence of this. It’s very common

Originally Posted by Jsmith007

180 miles round trip gets from from Pennsylvannia to Maryland to Northern Virginia and back to PA without having to rechgarge AND starting off only at 80% charge - on a BMW i4 M50. Thanks for the misleading links.

Speaking as someone who lived the first 35 plus years of his life in the NY, Philly and DC metro areas, and now lives in Texas, with all due respect you’re thinking like an east coaster. I can set out from Houston to Colorado and drive 12 hours, nearly straight, and still be in Texas. It’s further from Houston to Dallas than it is from NYC to Boston. There is a VAST country between the coasts and until you’ve lived there, it’s hard to imagine the effect.

Having said that, I owned an EV for 4 years in Houston and was fine. Drove it to Dallas (4 hours), Austin (2.5) often with ease.