[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by solstice

I don’t know if it’s confirmed but I’d guess they will continue with a sequential racing tranny like the Ricardo unit they use in the M6 GT3. As a note Porsche is also using a sequential gearbox in the 911 GT3 cup.

Yes. Whether they stick with Ricardo (likely) or switch to another OEM, it will be a racing-specific transmission like all GT3 spec vehicles.

Those looking for controversy will have to wait for the next generation factory GT4 BMW. We don't know yet if it will be also be based on the G82 M4 or if they will switch to the G87 M2. But since it is highly likely that the G87 will also switch to a ZF8 transmission (with a 6MT still an option), it is a good bet that the GT4 racer will also use that transmission.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by somer

It is absolutely different and it's the reason I'm not in an F90 right now. So much so that I think the F90 is an upgrade in every department in terms of traction, dynamics, looks, interior quality, technology except 2 generations behind in the gearbox compared to my 105k mile F10 DCT. I really can't believe you don't notice the delay in the gearbox compared to your F10.

One of the easiest solutions would have been to make the gearing much longer on these ZF boxes. It has some of the shortest ratios of any ZF equipped cars that I've looked into in 2018 at least when the F90 came out.

The 1 short test drive of the X3MComp I had I wasn't really focused solely on the gearbox like I've had on the 3 different occasions I've driven the F90 (2 dealership test drives, 1 friend), It was mostly the engine note, power output and dynamics of it. It's possible it's easier to shift since it's simply a bit slower than the M5 too.

I just want people to temper their expectations, to some people the ZF box is an upgrade, to some it's a downgrade and I'm in the latter camp.

The issue is when you make statements that you have to pull a paddle at 5.5k to make sure the engine changes at 7.2k you lose all credibility as that's just not true. (not sure why you'd make that up but you did)

You've had short test drive so maybe you should leave the commentary to others....rather than just making stuff up? (just a suggestion...)

If you don't like the thought of the ZF8 that's fine I get that many hate the MDCT and prefer a manual, but car forums are often plagued by people making statements about cars that are untrue and that helps no one in the community gain insight, you do the forum a disservice with posts like this.

[Loma]

Maybe someone could record a video specifically about the ZF8 upshifting and downshifting?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yes. Whether they stick with Ricardo (likely) or switch to another OEM, it will be a racing-specific transmission like all GT3 spec vehicles.

Those looking for controversy will have to wait for the next generation factory GT4 BMW. We don't know yet if it will be also be based on the G82 M4 or if they will switch to the G87 M2. But since it is highly likely that the G87 will also switch to a ZF8 transmission (with a 6MT still an option), it is a good bet that the GT4 racer will also use that transmission.

My bet is that the next GT4 will be based on the M2 since the GT3 is now based on the M4. So we have:
M8 GTE
M4 GT3
M2 GT4

[XsltAnalyst]

Didn't notice lag or any noticeable difference compared to DCT when I was doing fast laps in F90.

Let's be honest, ZF 8 speed will have a broader range of talents compared to DCT. Not to mention having a switchable RWD should offset some of the fun you'll miss with DCT.

When it comes to ZF8, it all comes down to software that each car manufacturer puts in it.
I am sure there will be software updates (from bmw or aftermarket) if there are issues.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by XsltAnalyst

Didn't notice lag or any noticeable difference compared to DCT when I was doing fast laps in F90.

Let's be honest, ZF 8 speed will have a broader range of talents compared to DCT. Not to mention having a switchable RWD should offset some of the fun you'll miss with DCT.

When it comes to ZF8, it all comes down to software that each car manufacturer puts in it.
I am sure there will be software updates (from bmw or aftermarket) if there are issues.

I drove a loaner M240i for a week and that car has arguably the best iteration of ZF8 coupled with its free-revving B58. However, it has slight lag from momentarily losing boost with each upshift. Downshift is much better than the F90 M5 I have test driven, but it is slower than DCT especially braking and downshifting into a corner and that really annoys me each time I execute it. Technical differences between DCT and ZF8 are well articulated by CanAutM3.

Now that I acquired a mint DCT E92 M3, I really don't get the complaints about its shift quality. If you drive it like a manual-give it a half clutch respect for creeping- it is a very fast and smooth transmission. Actually much smoother than ZF8 that can't seem to figure out the right revs each shift.

[somer]

Originally Posted by Loma

Maybe someone could record a video specifically about the ZF8 upshifting and downshifting?

1:47 in this is about the best you're going to get. If you don't think this is delayed then I can't help you. You can tell what I mean when shifting at 6k in 1st gear in this thing, it revs all the way to redline. Now imagine in the F90 the problem is exacerbated since the car is a good bit quicker, the M3 will be similar since you're shaving 600-700+ lbs off an X3M.

[pbar]

Originally Posted by somer

1:47 in this is about the best you're going to get. If you don't think this is delayed then I can't help you. You can tell what I mean when shifting at 6k in 1st gear in this thing, it revs all the way to redline. Now imagine in the F90 the problem is exacerbated since the car is a good bit quicker, the M3 will be similar since you're shaving 600-700+ lbs off an X3M.

See also the M8 Comp review video I linked to in this post: https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=256

[somer]

Originally Posted by pbar

See also the M8 Comp review video I linked to in this post: https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=256

Yeah i remember that review now from last year.

[Loma]

Originally Posted by somer

1:47 in this is about the best you're going to get. If you don't think this is delayed then I can't help you. You can tell what I mean when shifting at 6k in 1st gear in this thing, it revs all the way to redline. Now imagine in the F90 the problem is exacerbated since the car is a good bit quicker, the M3 will be similar since you're shaving 600-700+ lbs off an X3M.

Thanks for the video. I was asking because I don't have experience with ZF8.

It does indeed seem not to be that snappy compared to the DCT. Too bad...

[Puuhapete]

I was able to drive today a longer stint in an M5 F90. I REALLY hope the G80 won't feel like the M5. In full acceleration the "rubberness" of the transmission really disturbed me. If the G80 feels anything like that, I can say with certainty that the F80 is going to be my last M3. The front I can get used to, but the F90 felt also so "distant". Better than the F10 yes but not good. F10 is in my opinion is the worst M-car ever made in road and tyre feel, so thats not a good comparison.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Puuhapete

I was able to drive today a longer sting in an M5 F90. I REALLY hope the G80 won't feel like the M5. In full acceleration the "rubberness" of the transmission really disturbed me. If the G80 feels anything like that, I can say with certainty that the F80 is going to be my last M3. The front I can get used to, but the F90 felt also so "distant". Better than the F10 yes but not good. F10 is in my opinion is the worst M-car ever made in road and tyre feel, so thats not a good comparison.

Overall I suspect the M5 vs M3 difference in feel in the F10 vs F80 will remain in the F90 vs G80. However while the transmission feel should be a bit better due to evolution over a few years it will be similar so if that is a deal breaker and you don’t like MT I suspect you are on your last M3.

An X3M owner here with a lot of DCT experience wrote that the mechanical feel of the DCT is not there and that indicates the rubbery feel you talk about.

[Nugget]

I noticed the same with the F90.
I've never understood the hype about the ZF8, it just feels like a pretty good auto box to me.
Hopefully it feels a bit sharper in the G80.

[Puuhapete]

Originally Posted by solstice

Overall I suspect the M5 vs M3 difference in feel in the F10 vs F80 will remain in the F90 vs G80. However while the transmission feel should be a bit better due to evolution over a few years it will be similar so if that is a deal breaker and you don’t like MT I suspect you are on your last M3.

An X3M owner here with a lot of DCT experience wrote that the mechanical feel of the DCT is not there and that indicates the rubbery feel you talk about.

I guess manual might be an option though last manual I had was a 528i E39 from 1999

Originally Posted by Nugget

I noticed the same with the F90.
Hopefully it feels a bit sharper in the G80.

I hope so too. In the F90 I had to change gears in first and second at 5k rpm as otherwise I was hitting the limiter and then it was game over. Recovering from limiter seemed to take an eternity. Its a fast car yes but that doesn't explain the slow reaction of the transmission.

[somer]

Originally Posted by Puuhapete

I guess manual might be an option though last manual I had was a 528i E39 from 1999



I hope so too. In the F90 I had to change gears in first and second at 5k rpm as otherwise I was hitting the limiter and then it was game over. Recovering from limiter seemed to take an eternity. Its a fast car yes but that doesn't explain the slow reaction of the transmission.

At least somebody else is perceptive enough to notice how bad the delay is.

Keep hoping though it will be the same 8HP76X unit in the X3M/X4M with the same exact programming with the same exact gear ratios. Trash.

[Flamingi]

So I see there is a lot of discussion about the different transmissions. There are some points you always hear in favor of the DCT (and let's be honest here, the converter is the better option in many scenarios except very spirited driving or track use) and the main point is the faster shifting time.

If anyone is interested in some more or less factual evidence, I did some research and timed multiple videos of M4s and X3Ms to see their shift times. It actually took a bit of time to find videos for both cars where you could see the shifting time setting, the person was manually shifting at full throttle and see the padels and the rpm gauge at the same time.
For the X3M in the fastest transmission setting from the moment the shift pedal is pressed until the rpm gauge is fully in the next gear (i.e. when the needle is dropped down to ~4k rpm) it takes pretty much exactly 0.5s (14-16 frames in 30fps videos). You can time the shift time in the linked video above and I also used some videos uploaded by carwow (e.g. this one).
The M4 Competition with DCT I used multiple videos from AutoTopNL and it indeed shifts quicker. From pedal press until the gear display changes it's 10 frames (60fps video), but the rpms didn't drop at that point at all. (I think at that point the next gear is engaged, but the clutch is not yet released). Until the rpms start to drop it takes another 10 frames and until the rpms fully drop to 4k rpm it takes yet another 20 frames. I do think there is some delay in the gauge (not digital) so in the best case scenario if you say the gear is engaged when the rpms start to drop its 20/60s = 0.33s and if you say the gear is engaged when the rpms hit 4k its 40/60s = 0.66s. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I'm leaning more towards the first scenario, so the shifting times are ~0.33s for the DCT vs ~0.5s for the converter. Not that big of a difference as I expected. Of course there are other factors that play into it, e.g. the shifting characteristic/emotions (the little jerk from the clutch in the DCT).

Maybe some members that have a X3M or a M4 can make dedicated videos to let facts speak instead of emotions. Alternatively, maybe it is possible to log the shifting times.

[somer]

Originally Posted by Flamingi

So I see there is a lot of discussion about the different transmissions. There are some points you always hear in favor of the DCT (and let's be honest here, the converter is the better option in many scenarios except very spirited driving or track use) and the main point is the faster shifting time.

If anyone is interested in some more or less factual evidence, I did some research and timed multiple videos of M4s and X3Ms to see their shift times. It actually took a bit of time to find videos for both cars where you could see the shifting time setting, the person was manually shifting at full throttle and see the padels and the rpm gauge at the same time.
For the X3M in the fastest transmission setting from the moment the shift pedal is pressed until the rpm gauge is fully in the next gear (i.e. when the needle is dropped down to ~4k rpm) it takes pretty much exactly 0.5s (14-16 frames in 30fps videos). You can time the shift time in the linked video above and I also used some videos uploaded by carwow (e.g. this one).
The M4 Competition with DCT I used multiple videos from AutoTopNL and it indeed shifts quicker. From pedal press until the gear display changes it's 10 frames (60fps video), but the rpms didn't drop at that point at all. (I think at that point the next gear is engaged, but the clutch is not yet released). Until the rpms start to drop it takes another 10 frames and until the rpms fully drop to 4k rpm it takes yet another 20 frames. I do think there is some delay in the gauge (not digital) so in the best case scenario if you say the gear is engaged when the rpms start to drop its 20/60s = 0.33s and if you say the gear is engaged when the rpms hit 4k its 40/60s = 0.66s. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I'm leaning more towards the first scenario, so the shifting times are ~0.33s for the DCT vs ~0.5s for the converter. Not that big of a difference as I expected. Of course there are other factors that play into it, e.g. the shifting characteristic/emotions (the little jerk from the clutch in the DCT).

Maybe some members that have a X3M or a M4 can make dedicated videos to let facts speak instead of emotions. Alternatively, maybe it is possible to log the shifting times.

It's really hard to find good videos of the Getrag unit and how it shifts with both video and audible confirmation. Like I've contended for years now the DCT programming in the M5 and M6 I feel was much better than the M3 and M4. It could be exactly the same but just with the nature of how each engine revs and whatnot it definitely feels different when driving. I've always felt the M3 and M4 had a small torque lull when shifting vs the M5 and M6 just bang the next gear even at partial throttle loads.

I did a quick search and found an AutoTopNL vid with a decent example showing the gauge cluster along with the audible click of the paddle and following shift and "slam" into the next gear. Similarly he shifts at ~7100 in second gear and doesnt run into the 7200rpm limiter because its a dual clutch and not a slushbox.

Edit: Also I want to make clear the distinction of "shift time" as being a term for the entire delay from paddle input to actual gear shift. To me those are 2 separate actions and the main gripe is the "paddle delay" from the ZF not the actual physical gear change. From what I understand the physical gear shift time is actually less than the DCT but the paddle delay is much much longer.

Starting ~4:50 in this video:

Honestly I'm tired of beating this topic to death, people are gonna believe what they want to believe.

[Flamingi]

Originally Posted by somer

I did a quick search and found an AutoTopNL vid with a decent example showing the gauge cluster along with the audible click of the paddle and following shift and "slam" into the next gear. Similarly he shifts at ~7100 in second gear and doesnt run into the 7200rpm limiter because its a dual clutch and not a slushbox.

It does look like it is shifting faster than in the M4, and it actually behaves very similar: 10 frames until the gear selector changes, but instead of needing extra 10 frames until the rpms drop, they start dropping after a few frames already. Rpm drop itself again is 20 frames. With that DCT shifting times seem to be even faster.

Originally Posted by somer

Also I want to make clear the distinction of "shift time" as being a term for the entire delay from paddle input to actual gear shift. To me those are 2 separate actions and the main gripe is the "paddle delay" from the ZF not the actual physical gear change. From what I understand the physical gear shift time is actually less than the DCT but the paddle delay is much much longer.

That's how I think it is too. The main difference with the DCT in my experience is the instant head tilt forward from the power cut when pressing the paddle and then it engages the clutch more slowly than the converter. In the converter the head tilt is at the end of the gear change, i.e. after half a second. Main reason for me to investigate the shift times is to get back from the anecdotal and emotionally driven discussion in this thread to facts. If you want to go to the track the only thing that matters are the shift times, it doesn't matter if the head tilt is instantly after pressing or with a short delay, what counts is the length of time the engine can't power the wheels. Of course it does feel sportier with the DCT.

Again, to see if the converter is that much slower it might be possible for some tuner or experienced coder to log those values and report back with numbers, which do count more than anyones feelings. Frankly, in an objective discussions your feelings just don't matter (not your personal ones, somer, I mean feelings of any person in general). Unfortunately, there are just far too many people talking about heritage, homologation cars or whatever bs, they just are delusional and stuck back in 1990 when the M3 E30 was the hot shit (and back then they may were right, but things change people!).

Originally Posted by somer

Honestly I'm tired of beating this topic to death, people are gonna believe what they want to believe.

Sums up this whole thread perfectly.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by Flamingi

which do count more than anyones feelings.

Agree to disagree.

[solstice]

“Sums up this whole thread perfectly.“

Agreed but I find this thread as one of the better here, it’s a good mix of technical, observational and subjective comments without excessive “fighting”. The change of DCT to AT is one of the major technical changes and deserve some discussion. I’m not very partial since I have enough experience to know I’m ok with any of the later iterations of the transmission types MT, DCT and AT but I’m still interested in the detailed differences technical and observed.

[Puuhapete]

I have my second DCT now, the first was in the E92 2011. The only problem with DCT in my F80 is when changing into reverse. It takes some time to engage the R but its not a big issue.
My F80 feels very fast when changing gears in full throttle. Also downshifting several gears no problem. For me its more how it feels and the AT in the F90 felt reeaalllyyy slow.

[LOW4LYF]

Originally Posted by Nugget

I noticed the same with the F90.
I've never understood the hype about the ZF8, it just feels like a pretty good auto box to me.
Hopefully it feels a bit sharper in the G80.

So an automatic gearbox feels like an automatic gearbox to you?

What a surprise.