[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I am a firm believer that EV is not for everyone, everywhere. As I have actually owned two, experienced it, and spoken to owners. Yes, even owners in, gasp, Canada.

Government mandates to push EV's are foolhardy and will be rolled back. They just cannot replace every ICE vehicle. Too many situations.

However your FUD is laughable. Just because it doesn't work in some, fringe, situations, doesn't mean it's not a viable solution for a very large portion of the driving public.

I agree. Where infrastructure doesn't support EV it's silly.

Third world countries that barely have any grid to speak of are not going EV. There is going to be ICE for a very long time.

But dumping on EVs because of FUD is silly.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I wasn't comparing apples and oranges.

Reality is, very few M cars see the track.

Also the thread seems to be a piling on of people that just don't like EV without any valid arguments.

If you want to say EVs are heavy; fine.
If you want to talk about range time to fuel; fine.
If you want to talk about possible heat soaking; without adequate battery cooling; fine.

But others are talking nonsense about severe battery degradation in half the warranty period. Or reliability issues that don't exist, but sure did with my E90 335. Talk about reliability; lest talk about the bearing issues in the E90 M3 and E6x M5/6.

Anyway, you can build a track ready electric, just most people that buy an M3 would find it cost prohibitive. The question isn't if BMW can build one; it's could you afford it if they did?

There is no point in a $200k+ M3.

What's a track ready EV?
Motor IQ has a stripped/prepped Model 3 and they could get one good lap before performance starts to degrade.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Anyway, you can build a track ready electric, just most people that buy an M3 would find it cost prohibitive. The question isn't if BMW can build one; it's could you afford it if they did?

There is no point in a $200k+ M3.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4...-5-n-revealed/

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...dai-ioniq-5-n/

Hyundai has been very specific that this car was built for track sessions. Their goal was to have zero performance degradation over a 20 minute session, be able to charge for 20 minutes and go right back out for another 20 minute session.

I will be very interested in seeing if they have done it. According to the Road and Track article, the Ioniq 5 N can just about make two laps of the 'Ring before suffering degredation. Which is pretty good, because Porsche had a REALLY hard time making the Taycan do ONE full lap of the 'Ring at full power.

I have a friend who tracks extensively and has been a gentleman driver in GT3 Cup. His home track is Laguna. He notes that his Taycan surprises a lot of people, but he is only able to make it about 15 minutes before he starts to degrade in performance. Which is, he notes, more than a standard road car can do if it's not equipped with performance brakes.

Room for improvement, but it is coming fast. I have the feeling the 718 will have plenty of thermal management to last an entire 20 minute lapping session.

[evobeatsti]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Not even if it was a quad e-motor beast❔

The idea of such a car sounds absolutely amazing

Absolutely not, electric cars are heavy, and while the acceleration is fun the first time, they just lack a soul. On top of that, I don’t think there is an electric car out there that can deal with longer track sessions, and while they might set 1 fast lap, they fall off / overheat too quickly. Give me a good plug in hybrid if you have to go electric. Wouldn’t mind getting better than the 17 mpg I’m getting in my g80 lol

[evobeatsti]

On top of that, the best part of buying a new m car is modifying it, what is the aftermarket scene going to look like on an ev? Just cosmetic parts or weight reduction that makes it a worse daily driver…

[vbb]

I agree with needsdecalf and others in not speaking in absolutes about EVs. That's been my primary issue with the whole topic. Some people who don't like the governmental mandates affecting the push for EVs want to argue that the entire market is broken (or argue that it's driven by ulterior moties). Others who advocate for EVs (think the Tesla evangelists) act as if any criticism of EVs is bogus and they are clearly superior in every way both in performance and for the environment. That absolutism, on either side, is a weak argument.

Personal vehicles have become the scapegoats for increasing carbon emissions and the targets of world leaders and governments committed to affecting climate change. It's all about framing the issue. By framing it this way, it actually has resulted in less public buy-in and more criticism. Saving the environment may (and I say may intentionally) be the end goal, but you're not going to create a movement around that, because it's too abstract for people to grasp. If you want to get hundreds of millions of car buyers to "buy in" to the EV movement, you have to have better messaging. People who weren't really opposed to EVs now hate them because they're being shoved down their throats. If say 25% of vehicles on the road were EVs, primarily used by those that have shortish commutes and homes to charge them at night, that'd be a positive for the environment, have buy in, and be profitable for major manufacturers. Essentially legislating that no manufacturer can afford to make ICE performance cars any longer is a push that isn't going to improve the environment and didn't need to happen. Plus it's damn hard to support because of the infrastructure nightmares that arise when you push too hard too fast for a change nobody wants.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

What's a track ready EV?
Motor IQ has a stripped/prepped Model 3 and they could get one good lap before performance starts to degrade.

The TM3 is definitely not "track ready" no matter what you do to it.

Something with track capabilities ini d and currently none are built that way. I would like to see the Lucid performance or Sapphire on the track. At least Lucid knows what tracking an EV looks like. They supply technology to Formula E.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by evobeatsti

On top of that, the best part of buying a new m car is modifying it, what is the aftermarket scene going to look like on an ev? Just cosmetic parts or weight reduction that makes it a worse daily driver…

Well my i4 M50 has an Eibach lowering kit.
I dare say that where I live doing much to an M car isn't possible without running afoul of the Air Resources board and would make the car nearly impossible to pass inspection.

So beside catless downpipes and some other things that I wouldn't do to a new car approaching $100k what do you propose as far as mods?

[evobeatsti]

[QUOTE=techwhiz1;30339489]Well my i4 M50 has an Eibach lowering kit.
I dare say that where I live doing much to an M car isn't possible without running afoul of the Air Resources board and would make the car nearly impossible to pass inspection.

So beside catless downpipes and some other things that I wouldn't do to a new car approaching $100k what do you propose as far as mods?

I live in California and every car I’ve owned (2 m3’s, an evo, audi s4, etc) has had at least an intake, full exhaust, and tune. You don’t get smog inspected in the first 5 years of owning a new car so doesn’t matter much, and there’s always ways around it…

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by vbb

I agree with needsdecalf and others in not speaking in absolutes about EVs. That's been my primary issue with the whole topic. Some people who don't like the governmental mandates affecting the push for EVs want to argue that the entire market is broken (or argue that it's driven by ulterior moties). Others who advocate for EVs (think the Tesla evangelists) act as if any criticism of EVs is bogus and they are clearly superior in every way both in performance and for the environment. That absolutism, on either side, is a weak argument.

Personal vehicles have become the scapegoats for increasing carbon emissions and the targets of world leaders and governments committed to affecting climate change. It's all about framing the issue. By framing it this way, it actually has resulted in less public buy-in and more criticism. Saving the environment may (and I say may intentionally) be the end goal, but you're not going to create a movement around that, because it's too abstract for people to grasp. If you want to get hundreds of millions of car buyers to "buy in" to the EV movement, you have to have better messaging. People who weren't really opposed to EVs now hate them because they're being shoved down their throats. If say 25% of vehicles on the road were EVs, primarily used by those that have shortish commutes and homes to charge them at night, that'd be a positive for the environment, have buy in, and be profitable for major manufacturers. Essentially legislating that no manufacturer can afford to make ICE performance cars any longer is a push that isn't going to [...]

This we absolutely agree on.
I would also add that EV may be zero emission from the tailpipe, but electricity comes from somewhere and except for California and a few other places it's not "clean".

ICE has to be around because rote areas don't have a grid, but you can truck faster into those places or carry it yourself. It's impractical to bring enough panels into a remote area to charge a car.

I'm speaking as someone that has multiple EVs and solar.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by evobeatsti

I live in California and every car I’ve owned (2 m3’s, an evo, audi s4, etc) has had at least an intake, full exhaust, and tune. You don’t get smog inspected in the first 5 years of owning a new car so doesn’t matter much, and there’s always ways around it…

But "ways around it" are problematic. I live in California and after the 5 years, I don't want to deinstall stuff every two years. It's just silly and for the performance you normally get not worth the hassle.

But you are right, you aren't going to tune an EV. That doesn't mean you can't lower and change suspension, wheels, brakes and a host of other upgrades.

[zinner]

I am REALLY confused for a number of reasons:

1)You think comparing Formula E, an open wheel prototype EV race car, to a M3 is apples to apples after you accuse me of not comparing apples to apples. When I posted "the M3 should be a track capable car and EV's are not yet track capable". I made no comparison in my original post.

2) Then you continue on attributing a whole bunch of statements about weight and fuel and heat soaking to me which I didn't make.

3) Then you are talking about bearings issues? Ok, you get EV's have bearings right?

4)Then you end talking about how you can build a track capable EV, but it would be so expensive that it's not feasible and no one would buy it?

I am not even sure what you are arguing about or to whom you are arguing.

I don't agree with the premise that M cars shouldn't be built to handle track driving at all, and I see hundreds of them at the track, and I just visit a single track with a single chapter. There are many other tracks and clubs in the US and all over the world related to BMW CCA. BMW runs a school where you can pay to drive their cars on the track. The premise it just flawed because you don't see the value in M cars being track capable and feel everyone should just view it the same as you?

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I wasn't comparing apples and oranges.

Reality is, very few M cars see the track.

Also the thread seems to be a piling on of people that just don't like EV without any valid arguments.

If you want to say EVs are heavy; fine.
If you want to talk about range time to fuel; fine.
If you want to talk about possible heat soaking; without adequate battery cooling; fine.

But others are talking nonsense about severe battery degradation in half the warranty period. Or reliability issues that don't exist, but sure did with my E90 335. Talk about reliability; lest talk about the bearing issues in the E90 M3 and E6x M5/6.

Anyway, you can build a track ready electric, just most people that buy an M3 would find it cost prohibitive. The question isn't if BMW can build one; it's could you afford it if they did?

There is no point in a $200k+ M3.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by zinner

3) Then you are talking about bearings issues? Ok, you get EV's have bearings right?

Based on the models he pointed out, he's undoubtedly referring to rod bearings. Which EV's most certainly do not have.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

NEW cars. Why problems when new? More densed populates per area and small distances compared to Canada. In Canada distances are huge and an electric car in some instances is pure suicide. There are areas where you can see signs like “next service or gas station in 400 or 500 km.”

Ask the fellow that I picked last winter when his new Tesla was out of juice on highway. We become friends. Oh, and Tesla got sold a week later. He drives a petrol Cayenne now. No return to EV.

Norway has a governmental imposed EV agenda, hence you pay through your nose for a gas vehicle as import duty so people are forced to buy an electric (zero duty) or not buy it at all. See gas prices too. So much for free choice and freedom.

Canada is way colder. And while both registered similar lower temperatures as records, Canada has stable long and cold winters (over 6 months. We had snow during summer months too and it was a snowstorm on June this year. see attached picture) with persistent periods of continuous -25 and some weeks with -40/-45, while Norway has less and warmer winters (4 months). 3-4 days outside for your EV in a canadian small town and you are dead. A petrol will start weeks later. Maybe 3-4 weeks later at such temperatures needs a boost but thats it.

It is proven that EV battery power drops at nearly 54% or lower during winter in a -15Celsius. At -45 you do the math. In fact Tesla is facing a lawsuit in Korea (almost 3 billion won fine) as we speak for not disclosing this small fine print…

I’m sorry you are going through that.
We really are at war against our own governments. It’s such a sad waste of energy.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I wasn't comparing apples and oranges.

Reality is, very few M cars see the track.

Also the thread seems to be a piling on of people that just don't like EV without any valid arguments.

If you want to say EVs are heavy; fine.
If you want to talk about range time to fuel; fine.
If you want to talk about possible heat soaking; without adequate battery cooling; fine.

But others are talking nonsense about severe battery degradation in half the warranty period. Or reliability issues that don't exist, but sure did with my E90 335. Talk about reliability; lest talk about the bearing issues in the E90 M3 and E6x M5/6.

Anyway, you can build a track ready electric, just most people that buy an M3 would find it cost prohibitive. The question isn't if BMW can build one; it's could you afford it if they did?

There is no point in a $200k+ M3.

What are you talking about, there’s documented cases of EV range dropping precipitously due to temperature and age.

There’s documented issues of warranty issues and the difficulty in getting them fixed, and the extreme costs associated with EV repairs, should the need arise.

So, they are all lies and the liars that tell them?

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I am a firm believer that EV is not for everyone, everywhere. As I have actually owned two, experienced it, and spoken to owners. Yes, even owners in, gasp, Canada.

Government mandates to push EV's are foolhardy and will be rolled back. They just cannot replace every ICE vehicle. Too many situations.

However your FUD is laughable. Just because it doesn't work in some, fringe, situations, doesn't mean it's not a viable solution for a very large portion of the driving public.

I never said is not a viable solution for some. Depends where you live, what is the purpose of the vehicle, what is your lifestyle, etc. From freedom to personal perception of driving enjoyment and many many personal reasons, EV is just not for me.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Based on the models he pointed out, he's undoubtedly referring to rod bearings. Which EV's most certainly do not have.

That's exactly what I am talking about and most (not all) M generations have had rod or crank bearing issues.

EVs are an order of magnitude more reliable than ICE cars.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by DO444

What are you talking about, there’s documented cases of EV range dropping precipitously due to temperature and age.

There’s documented issues of warranty issues and the difficulty in getting them fixed, and the extreme costs associated with EV repairs, should the need arise.

So, they are all lies and the liars that tell them?

I never said that temperature had no effect on range. As long as the EV is within the warranty period set by the government (at least here) there shouldn't be issues. I live in California and EV batteries are covered for 10 years/150K miles.

Also there are cases of warranty repairs being denied for any number of things and EVs are not exempt.

Also go cost out what an M3 motor replacement is and get back to me.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by zinner

I am REALLY confused for a number of reasons:

1)You think comparing Formula E, an open wheel prototype EV race car, to a M3 is apples to apples after you accuse me of not comparing apples to apples. When I posted "the M3 should be a track capable car and EV's are not yet track capable". I made no comparison in my original post.

2) Then you continue on attributing a whole bunch of statements about weight and fuel and heat soaking to me which I didn't make.

3) Then you are talking about bearings issues? Ok, you get EV's have bearings right?

4)Then you end talking about how you can build a track capable EV, but it would be so expensive that it's not feasible and no one would buy it?

I am not even sure what you are arguing about or to whom you are arguing.

I don't agree with the premise that M cars shouldn't be built to handle track driving at all, and I see hundreds of them at the track, and I just visit a single track with a single chapter. There are many other tracks and clubs in the US and all over the world related to BMW CCA. BMW runs a school where you can pay to drive their cars on the track. The premise it just flawed because you don't see the value in M cars being track capable and feel everyone should just view it the same as you?

Just to be clear it was a general argument and instead of posting to multiple people it was your post.

The example of Formula E was to indicate that an BEV track car is possible. Just not practical.

I was also stating that most people that buy M cars do not track them. BMCCA is the exception and not the rule. That doesn't mean they don't get tracked.

Will it be one day? Maybe, but battery tech needs to improve by 2x and we won't be there for years. 2x current battery capacity at the same weight isn't even in a lab in a reliable fashion yet.

I'm not the one saying EV is the only solution; it's a solution. ICE will be around for a while. There are markets where EVs aren't and won't be a good option for decades, if ever.

[oz555]

The worse thing is happening. They (BMW) make some engines for US and other for Europe. (540i for US and 550e plug-in hybrid for EU). So in the near future we’ll have electric M3 for Europe (because Climate changes) and full petrol 3.0 inline six M3 for US (because US). We are entering total madness with this “eco-thing”.

[zinner]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Just to be clear it was a general argument and instead of posting to multiple people it was your post.

The example of Formula E was to indicate that an BEV track car is possible. Just not practical.

I was also stating that most people that buy M cars do not track them. BMCCA is the exception and not the rule. That doesn't mean they don't get tracked.

Will it be one day? Maybe, but battery tech needs to improve by 2x and we won't be there for years. 2x current battery capacity at the same weight isn't even in a lab in a reliable fashion yet.

I'm not the one saying EV is the only solution; it's a solution. ICE will be around for a while. There are markets where EVs aren't and won't be a good option for decades, if ever.

I asked the internet about Formula e and bmw and here is what I got.

For manufacturers like BMW and Audi, there was too much of a disparity between the technology produced for Formula E, and the technology produced for their standard electric consumer cars for both to be viable, and inevitably- it was the sport that got dropped as a result.

So it seems like it was attempted but abandon because it currently doesn't make sense to field a ev based "track" car. Seems bmw thinks your comparison is "apples and oranges" as well. It's not even "PRACTICAL" for a multi million dollar factory backed team yet you said it's possible but expensive. You said 200 k right? I see quite expensive m cars at the track quite frequently that fall into that price point. Factory M235ir, M2r, M4 gt's are all examples of bmws efforts. These are non Street legal and sold specifically for track usage by bmw. Yet no almost no one tracks a bmw so let's just do away with them. So many ppl track them they sell track only versions...... 🤔

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by zinner

So it seems like it was attempted but abandon because it currently doesn't make sense to field a ev based "track" car. Seems bmw thinks your comparison is "apples and oranges" as well. It's not even "PRACTICAL" for a multi million dollar factory backed team yet you said it's possible but expensive. You said 200 k right? I see quite expensive m cars at the track quite frequently that fall into that price point. Factory M235ir, M2r, M4 gt's are all examples of bmws efforts. These are non Street legal and sold specifically for track usage by bmw. Yet no almost no one tracks a bmw so let's just do away with them. So many ppl track them they sell track only versions...... 🤔

Well, the tech used for Formula E has found it's way into Lucid, which has some of the most efficient motors and battery management in the industry. Look at the range numbers and performance. The series was challenging because you had to run the whole race on a single charge.

I never said that nobody races M cars.
I said that the typical M cars sold at the dealership don't see track time. That are two completely different statements. You are talking about non street legal cars and that argument about nobody races M is specious and not what I said. Turner and taons of other race M cars. There are people with lots of money that club race. That is not the point.

What I also said was would a $200k M3 EV be a marketable car? I answered with probably not.

A max configuration M2 comes in at about $77k.
A max configured (not special unobtainable car) M3/4 Competion xDrive with carbon buckets and carbon ceramic brakes clocks in at $110k.

Making an M3/4 EV that costs $200k misses the competitive mark.

I'm not sure what you are arguing, except maybe that my opinions aren't yours?

But let me summarize:

Petrol cars are going to be around for a while.
Emerging markets will need petrol for the foreseeable future and so will remote areas. It's a whole lot easier to transport and store gas than to build electric infrastructure.

BMW will use a mix of tech for a while, because they have to and have shareholders to please. So they will be making BEV, Hybrid and ICE.

Is my i4 M50 a substitute for a track car? Nope. I had planned to use my retired 335i as that until it got totaled. I do have a fun 2003 Mini Cooper S though.

My M50 is a great road car, and on the road, it's as good as the M3/4 that I test drove and that's why I bought the M50. IMHO

Different people like and prefer different things.