[Influence]

I didn’t read through all 15 pages of this thread so apologies if this has been posted already.

I read a bunch of comments asking “what good would snow tires be on black ice?”

Pretty obvious what they do (even on pure ice) if you watch this video. Yes it’s from 2009 but the results are similar with todays tires (though the newest all-seasons probably do a bit better today).

These tests are only at 10mph. Imagine the stopping distances at 20, 30, or 40mph.

[MCM4]

Been a while since I posted here, as I firmly live in Blackwing Country. But I want to reply and say Praise God you are OK. The tires, speed, conditions, whatever - just Praise God you are OK

[hooked]

Originally Posted by Influence

I read a bunch of comments asking “what good would snow tires be on black ice?”

Pretty obvious what they do (even on pure ice) if you watch this video. Yes it’s from 2009 but the results are similar with todays tires (though the newest all-seasons probably do a bit better today).

Thanks for sharing. If this doesn't make it clear that the "it was the ice and winter tires would NOT have made a difference" argument look as silly as it sounds, then nothing will.

[BMWbiker]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Why are we still talking about this?

In part because some people continue to believe that driving on summer tires in the winter is acceptable.

It is not. It is unacceptable.

Those who do so are dangerous to others, themselves, other property, and their cars, in descending order of importance.

They may get away with it. Then again, a drunk driver may get away with driving drunk—until he doesn’t and someone else dies.

Getting away with it does not make it right.

Anyone can be ignorant about summer tires. Anyone can make a mistake. Although less common today in the era of cellphones and modern weather forecasting, anyone can be caught by surprise in unexpected weather conditions, as I once was over twenty years ago (as I described in a previous post).

However, anyone who has read this thread, and still continues to drive on summer tires in winter conditions—which can be as little as a 40 degree F. day—refuses to acknowledge facts, and poses a threat to others on the road.

If such a person crashes, causes damage, injury or death, and a lawyer reads this topic, that person will have a tough time defending himself in court. By then it’s too late to repent.

[Hansn]

Originally Posted by Influence

I didn’t read through all 15 pages of this thread so apologies if this has been posted already.

I read a bunch of comments asking “what good would snow tires be on black ice?”

Pretty obvious what they do (even on pure ice) if you watch this video. Yes it’s from 2009 but the results are similar with todays tires (though the newest all-seasons probably do a bit better today).

These tests are only at 10mph. Imagine the stopping distances at 20, 30, or 40mph.

Nice video. Its frustrating to try to explain this to people with no clue. But now people can watch this instead. 😄
Get that 2k extra set and save your summer set thread for 4 months of the year. Get proper nordic winter tires, not all seasons and experience what actual safe driving in winter is like. I can assure everyone that the preformance difference is bigger than getting Cup2R's over a china summertire in summer.

By the way.. at 30mph+ i assure you the stopping distance on summer tires are wherever the first obstacle is located. You can see on page 1 of this thread how that worked out.

[Custom Install]

Originally Posted by BMWbiker

In part because some people continue to believe that driving on summer tires in the winter is acceptable.

It is not. It is unacceptable.

Those who do so are dangerous to others, themselves, other property, and their cars, in descending order of importance.

They may get away with it. Then again, a drunk driver may get away with driving drunk—until he doesn’t and someone else dies.

Getting away with it does not make it right.

Anyone can be ignorant about summer tires. Anyone can make a mistake. Although less common today in the era of cellphones and modern weather forecasting, anyone can be caught by surprise in unexpected weather conditions, as I once was over twenty years ago (as I described in a previous post).

However, anyone who has read this thread, and still continues to drive on summer tires in winter conditions—which can be as little as a 40 degree F. day—refuses to acknowledge facts, and poses a threat to others on the road.

If such a person crashes, causes damage, injury or death, and a lawyer reads this topic, that person will have a tough time defending himself in court. By then it’s too late to repent.

You having a go at the majority of the UK population who drive in the winter is just ignorant.
It’s not a requirment or ‘a thing’ over here.
Once again, I have no issue with your general point saying winter tyres are sensible can you please understand that. But we get by just fine, because we drive the car to the conditions.
So what you’ve written is pretty one sided.
Not because we are ignorant, reckless, stupid or any of things you decide to label us.
We have spent our entire driving life with the same set of tyres all year round.
Maybe because we don’t have the class action lawsuit scenario…

[M4ROLLIN20]

Originally Posted by G82Anxious

So before these graphic images. I want everyone to know I am fairly ok. Mentally I am distraught that my baby is gone. Basically what happen is I am driving on my way to work and it's about 25-28 degrees outside and well...in the blink of an eye...black ice caused me to spin out and the rest is history...Please be careful out there.

I’m so sorry that’s horrific. It’s happened to me too I was just to ashamed to post the pics.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by Custom Install

You having a go at the majority of the UK population who drive in the winter is just ignorant.
It’s not a requirment or ‘a thing’ over here.
Once again, I have no issue with your general point saying winter tyres are sensible can you please understand that. But we get by just fine, because we drive the car to the conditions.
So what you’ve written is pretty one sided.
Not because we are ignorant, reckless, stupid or any of things you decide to label us.
We have spent our entire driving life with the same set of tyres all year round.
Maybe because we don’t have the class action lawsuit scenario…

Are you Scottish by any chance ?🤔
Edit:
Just checked. Nevermind

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by Blkbeemerboi

That’s true but I hardly drive it as I do have my 911 and a Jeep but I like to have options as my wife drives the Jeep so if I need to go out in the snow I would like to in the BMW but not that much to warrant another set of wheels, at least not now

100% agree here. However some seems to think that winter tire set is a waste of money let alone additional vehicle for that purpose alone. You know. I only drive in sport plus and all 🤣

[PawnStar]

Genuinely curious, was DSC off? Were you in 2WD or MDM?

[smithf80]

OP did a hit and run on this thread, posted this and hasn't been online since.

[GFK007]

Originally Posted by BMWbiker

Ouch! I hope you’re all right.

What are you driving now?

So what’s ridiculous is I put Michelin All-Seasons on my X3M (I had the 21’s). Car was great in the snow.

Like an idiot, I just never took the time to get a different set for my S4, under the guise that after it snowed, I would then use that as a reminder to replace the tires. Issue was, I was out (fairly far from home), and crawling back when it did start to snow / sleet heavily. At that pt, it was too late.

The damage in the pics, was caused at speeds of maybe @ 15mph. Hit a stone wall.

Have yet to find a replacement!

[BMWbiker]

Originally Posted by GFK007

So what’s ridiculous is I put Michelin All-Seasons on my X3M (I had the 21’s). Car was great in the snow.

Like an idiot, I just never took the time to get a different set for my S4, under the guise that after it snowed, I would then use that as a reminder to replace the tires. Issue was, I was out (fairly far from home), and crawling back when it did start to snow / sleet heavily. At that pt, it was too late.

The damage in the pics, was caused at speeds of maybe @ 15mph. Hit a stone wall.

Have yet to find a replacement!

Bummer! I gather that you’re fine. That’s good.

You may have read my earlier post about my B5 S4 Avant. I learned the easy way, glad to say.

Best wishes for a replacement, with good snow or all-season tires.

I need to get snow tires for my brand new X3 M40i. At least it currently has all seasons, and no snow is in the forecast anytime in the immediate future.

[hooked]

Originally Posted by Berzerker

As much as we all like to put the PS4S on a pedestal, diminishing returns applies here, as with any industry and marketable item. It is one of the best combo daily/street summer performance tire on the market, perhaps the best. However, it's not *so much* better than a lot of other newer developed tires on the market that you would be a fool for buying anything else. At the same price, maybe, but there are some really good all-season tires out there (DWS06+, AS4) that come close enough to a good performance summer that if you live in an area of cold/snow, you'd probably not notice any difference in your normal daily driving (with even the occasional pull) with one of these tires.

The problem in a vacuum is the P Zero* is pretty close in price to a PS4S*, so there's really no reason to get anything else. The next gen competition will be the SportContact 7 and the PS5S whenever those get released and released in our sizes.

The BMW and Michelin engineers spent 2 years co-developing the PS4S* for their cars. It feels and tests better than the regular one according to those that can do controlled A-B comparisons like this review. I wouldn't be so confident about those other tires as equal substitutes...We should appreciate the fact that these tires come standard on so many of their M cars!

I switch between PS4S* and Pirelli Sottozero 3 every 6 months and the difference is immediately noticeable in daily driving. I also use cross climate A/S on my other vehicles year round and, although they are great, they don't feel and perform at the level my summer and winters tires do...during daily driving. You don't have to be hooning the car to feel it...simply take an on/off ramp at a reasonable speed and you feel the differences in linearity, play and ultimately overall grip, immediately.

In a top performance sedan like an M2/M3/M4, with even greater levels of power and feel than my car, summer performance and winter performance tires are a MUST in colder weather climates. I can't tell you how many times I have thanked my lucky stars that I had my winter tires on. They simply do things in the cold, rain and snow, my summer tires can't. And they perform a lot like the PS4S* do when I'm having a little more fun out there. If the PS4S* is a 10/10, the Pirelli SZ3 are 9/10.

Today's high performance winter tires are NOTHING like the winter tires our parents used to have but no winter or all season tire is going to equally substitute the tire that the BMW and Michelin engineers specifically designed for BMW performance cars. To gloss over that fact and recommend an all season tire on these cars year-round seems like a bad idea to me unless you are leasing it and don't want to deal with winter tires. Take the summers off, put all seasons on, drive it for 36 months, then put the like-new summers back on and turn it in.

[Berzerker]

Originally Posted by hooked

The BMW and Michelin engineers spent 2 years co-developing the PS4S* for their cars. It feels and tests better than the regular one according to those that can do controlled A-B comparisons like this review. I wouldn't be so confident about those other tires as equal substitutes...We should appreciate the fact that these tires come standard on so many of their M cars!

I switch between PS4S* and Pirelli Sottozero 3 every 6 months and the difference is immediately noticeable in daily driving. I also use cross climate A/S on my other vehicles year round and, although they are great, they don't feel and perform at the level my summer and winters tires do...during daily driving. You don't have to be hooning the car to feel it...simply take an on/off ramp at a reasonable speed and you feel the differences in linearity, play and ultimately overall grip, immediately.

In a top performance sedan like an M2/M3/M4, with even greater levels of power and feel than my car, summer performance and winter performance tires are a MUST in colder weather climates. I can't tell you how many times I have thanked my lucky stars that I had my winter tires on. They simply do things in the cold, rain and snow, my summer tires can't. And they perform a lot like the PS4S* do when I'm having a little more fun out there. If the PS4S* is a 10/10, the Pirelli SZ3 are 9/10.

Today's high performance winter tires are NOTHING like the winter tires our parents used to have but no winter or all season tire is going to equally substitute the tire that the BMW and Michelin engineers specifically designed for BMW performance cars. To gloss over that fact and recommend an all season tire on these cars year-round seems like a bad idea to me unless you are leasing it and don't want to deal with winter tires. Take the summers off, put all seasons on, drive it for 36 months, then put the like-new summers back on and turn it in.

Sounds like someone who hasn't really reviewed or looked at the newer generation AS's. If you live in an area with limited or no snow, but low temperatures, it'll be better to put a high-performance all-season than some performance winter on. You'll get less tread wear and it'll be a better experience than running a winter when you just have colder temps.

The DWS06+ are considered "high-performance all-seasons" and I am thoroughly impressed with how well it performs even compared to a PS4S*. They're exactly for the setup I described, those who can't or don't want to run summers in a colder environment but that don't necessarily need a good winter tire due to lack of snow or winter conditions, weather-wise. Anyone who knows they're in this kind of situation, or even if you get a bit of snow (they still perform quite well even in actual winter conditions) should absolutely be going for something like the DWS06+ over a real winter tire as they're not necessary and will perform better.

[hooked]

Originally Posted by Berzerker

Sounds like someone who hasn't really reviewed or looked at the newer generation AS's. If you live in an area with limited or no snow, but low temperatures, it'll be better to put a high-performance all-season than some performance winter on. You'll get less tread wear and it'll be a better experience than running a winter when you just have colder temps.

The DWS06+ are considered "high-performance all-seasons" and I am thoroughly impressed with how well it performs even compared to a PS4S*. They're exactly for the setup I described, those who can't or don't want to run summers in a colder environment but that don't necessarily need a good winter tire due to lack of snow or winter conditions, weather-wise. Anyone who knows they're in this kind of situation, or even if you get a bit of snow (they still perform quite well even in actual winter conditions) should absolutely be going for something like the DWS06+ over a real winter tire as they're not necessary and will perform better.

I did my research. All A/S tires are a compromise by design even if they call them "high performance all seasons" which is a contradiction in itself. A/S are good at most temps but never great at any. Every test result bears that out and the difference at colder temps is greater than the difference at warmer temps. Wouldn't BMW put all seasons on their performance cars if they were so great? They don't want to see their customers kill themselves or others yet they risk that every winter by putting their high performance vehicles on high-performance summer tires and expecting owners in colder climates do the right thing. They know, based on a LOT more engineering and experience than anyone here has, that to get the best performance out of any car you need dedicated tires for warm weather and dedicated tires for cold weather. No single tire can do both equally well, but keep buying that A/S Kool-Aid!

[Berzerker]

Originally Posted by hooked

I did my research. All A/S tires are a compromise by design even if they call them "high performance all seasons" which is a contradiction in itself. A/S are good at most temps but never great at any. Every test result bears that out and the difference at colder temps is greater than the difference at warmer temps. Wouldn't BMW put all seasons on their performance cars if they were so great? They don't want to see their customers kill themselves or others yet they risk that every winter by putting their high performance vehicles on high-performance summer tires and expecting owners in colder climates do the right thing. They know, based on a LOT more engineering and experience than anyone here has, that to get the best performance out of any car you need dedicated tires for warm weather and dedicated tires for cold weather. No single tire can do both equally well, but keep buying that A/S Kool-Aid!

Pretty poor argument. "Wouldn't BMW put winter tires on their performance cars if they were so great?" Doesn't really make sense does it?

I gave you the specific situation these tires are good for. If you're in an environment with lots of snow for multiple months and temperatures constantly below freezing, yes I would get a good winter tire and use that for the season. But, like I said, for situations (like mine) where there's no snow, temperatures fall below freezing for a month at most, and not consistently, and no winter conditions, there's little reason to go with a full winter tire when you can get a very high performing all-season, like the DWS06+ (which has been tested to have one of the best performances in wet cold conditions, even better than most winters and definitely than any summer) that will wear less and give you just as good driving performance

[BMWbiker]

Originally Posted by Custom Install

You having a go at the majority of the UK population who drive in the winter is just ignorant.
It’s not a requirment or ‘a thing’ over here.
Once again, I have no issue with your general point saying winter tyres are sensible can you please understand that. But we get by just fine, because we drive the car to the conditions.
So what you’ve written is pretty one sided.
Not because we are ignorant, reckless, stupid or any of things you decide to label us.
We have spent our entire driving life with the same set of tyres all year round.
Maybe because we don’t have the class action lawsuit scenario…

If the conditions are outside of the operating parameters of the tires, then you and other drivers put yourselves and others at risk of injury and death.

As countless mothers have said to their children when the children want to do something that others were doing: “If they wanted to jump off a bridge, should you do so too?”

[T0RM3NT]

Originally Posted by smithf80

OP did a hit and run on this thread, posted this and hasn't been online since.

He's probably feeling a little G82Anxious...

Thank you, thank you...I'm here all week!

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by smithf80

OP did a hit and run on this thread, posted this and hasn't been online since.

Exactly what I was going to say!

[Custom Install]

Originally Posted by BMWbiker

If the conditions are outside of the operating parameters of the tires, then you and other drivers put yourselves and others at risk of injury and death.

As countless mothers have said to their children when the children want to do something that others were doing: “If they wanted to jump off a bridge, should you do so too?”

What almost our entire country?
Maybe most are like me and pay attention to the weather and use common sense.
This is like being back at school, apart from the fact I mostly learned something there.

Your doing it again, preaching and talking to others like their dumb.
We get on just fine over here thank you very much, no drama, no preaching, just getting on with our life in general and being sensible out on the road.
Winters or not.

[Xtremsiege2]

Originally Posted by G82Anxious

]

Is this right where the Hutchinson river parkway starts? The gas station in the middle has been under construction.