[tsixtial]

Is the Motiv Reflex really necessary when going single turbo / tune? Does the reliability of the tune/vechicle change without having it?

I rather wait for the BM3 Rev 2 module. I was told if I am sending my ECU now to Fenton it will be ready to go with Rev 2 without having to resend it back for unlock.

I guess the latest firmware update was to add the single bank fuel control.

[Mapper]

I thought motive is a controller for a fuel system separate of the ECU. Has nothing to do with single turbo or turbos.


Now if you go with a single turbo, clearly your desire is more power beyond the stock fuel system. So remove this roadblock you can get larger Direct injectors, install higher flowing HPFPs and your ECU still controls it all. .
OR install separate fuel system port injection and lpfp and need an external controller OR wait for bm3 rev 2

[AhsanU]

There are two fuel delivery methods - DI (direct injection) and PI (port injection). And I will type this for future readers that are curious and are looking for a bit of information regarding the S58 and fuel delivery assuming a rudimentary understanding of a few things.

When upgrading turbos or going single turbo, the S58 needs additional fuelling in order to not run lean. That can be done either through larger injectors in the DI system, or through additional fuel through the port. If you go the pure DI route, you do not need any port controller, such as the MoTIV ReFlex, since there's no additional fuel going through the port. Assuming you're on MHD/bm3, the fuelling would be controlled by the DME and that's that. Currently, if you do decide to add fuelling through the port, then you'll need: port injection fuel rail, injectors, a port controller, and a lpfp (low pressure fuel pump). The two current port controllers are: MoTIV ReFlex, and the MaxxECU with a harness by RTP Performance.

The ReFlex and MaxxECU typically require separate tuning. I am currently on bootmod3 using MaxxECU as a port fuel/boost controller. Every time I get an update for more boost, my tuner sends me a file to be flashed on the MaxxECU. If there are any issues, I log through bootmod3 and if something needs to be changed that isn't related to PI fuel/boost, I'm given a bootmod3 map to flash. MaxxECU and the MoTIV ReFlex are technically standalone controllers and do not talk to MHD/bootmod3 - until now. As of now in May of 2024, the ReFlex is significantly better integrated into MHD, but acts as a normal standalone with bootmod3. You can absolutely run a ReFlex with bootmod3, but if you're unlocking right now and can go either way between MHD and bootmod3 - go MHD. The ReFlex is better integrated into MHD and you no longer need to flash anything separately on the ReFlex (except a base map), everything can be done through MHD. Being integrated into MHD introduces things such as boost by gear and many failsafes that you want when pushing the boundaries of an expensive car.

bootmod3's answer to this is what they're calling rev2 (revision 2). Currently, bootmod3 is on rev1.1, with rev1 being CustomROM and rev1.1 being single bank logic for single turbo conversions. Rev2 will feature an update to the software and a physical board, much like the ReFlex and MaxxECU, that controls port injection fuel and like the new MHD/ReFlex integration, will not require any separate maps to be flashed anywhere - everything will be integrated into bootmod3.

There's quite a bit of nuance that I did not delve into, specifically other benefits of the recent migration of MHD and ReFlex as well as further benefits of rev2, but for those that are curious, you can do your own research into it (it's as easy as looking at MHD/bootmod3's instagram page).

So to answer your question OP: a port controller isn't strictly necessary when going single turbo, but it's necessary if using the port as a complementary fuel delivery system. The only DI option on the market isn't much of an option and isn't cost effective. Without additional fuelling, you will see unfavourable AFR's and will be running lean - something you absolutely do not want to do. If you would like to wait for rev2 - great! There's currently an ETA for it but PTF are a bit notorious for always missing those target dates. Just remember you will have to send out your DME back to femto in order to get the software necessary to run rev2, and you will have to pay for the physical board itself from PTF. MHD released "MHD+" which enabled integration of the ReFlex but it too requires a resending of your DME back to femto.

So all in all, femto wins.

[tsixtial]

Originally Posted by AhsanU

There are two fuel delivery methods - DI (direct injection) and PI (port injection). And I will type this for future readers that are curious and are looking for a bit of information regarding the S58 and fuel delivery assuming a rudimentary understanding of a few things.

When upgrading turbos or going single turbo, the S58 needs additional fuelling in order to not run lean. That can be done either through larger injectors in the DI system, or through additional fuel through the port. If you go the pure DI route, you do not need any port controller, such as the MoTIV ReFlex, since there's no additional fuel going through the port. Assuming you're on MHD/bm3, the fuelling would be controlled by the DME and that's that. Currently, if you do decide to add fuelling through the port, then you'll need: port injection fuel rail, injectors, a port controller, and a lpfp (low pressure fuel pump). The two current port controllers are: MoTIV ReFlex, and the MaxxECU with a harness by RTP Performance.

The ReFlex and MaxxECU typically require separate tuning. I am currently on bootmod3 using MaxxECU as a port fuel/boost controller. Every time I get an update for more boost, my tuner sends me a file to be flashed on the MaxxECU. If there are any issues, I log through bootmod3 and if something needs to be changed that isn't related to PI fuel/boost, I'm given a bootmod3 map to flash. MaxxECU and the MoTIV ReFlex are technically standalone controllers and do not talk to MHD/bootmod3 - until now. As of now in May of 2024, the ReFlex is significantly better integrated into MHD, but [...]

Great explanation!

I will be going with bigger injectors ID1080X and do not plan on going port injection for now.

As for MHD+ I’ll have to look into that as well but it just seems like at the moment MHD+ & BM3 Rev 2 is only benefited if I were to go with Port Injection.

In regards to sending the ECU back to be compatible with Rev 2. I was told current revision/unlocks of BM3 will not need to be sent back to Femto only if you unlocked in the early stages but who knows 🤷🏻‍♂️.

But thanks for the clarification really appreciated it!

[dvlg80]

Originally Posted by tsixtial

Great explanation!

I will be going with bigger injectors ID1080X and do not plan on going port injection for now.

As for MHD+ I’ll have to look into that as well but it just seems like at the moment MHD+ & BM3 Rev 2 is only benefited if I were to go with Port Injection.

In regards to sending the ECU back to be compatible with Rev 2. I was told current revision/unlocks of BM3 will not need to be sent back to Femto only if you unlocked in the early stages but who knows 🤷🏻‍♂️.

But thanks for the clarification really appreciated it!

The ID1050X are PI only injectors. FYI

[tsixtial]

Originally Posted by dvlg80

The ID1050X are PI only injectors. FYI

Good to know.. I just assumed it would work as a direct replacement because it was compatible for my other cars.

Are there direct replacements bigger injectors?

[chris3g]

spool performance makes higher-flow direct injectors however you can't just replace the injectors. The first limit for the DI fueling system is the HPFPs crashing out, so you need to replace both of those, the injectors, and you also need additional pump capacity on the low pressure side to supply the DI system. You're looking at around $8k to do an upgraded di-only fuel system.

[tsixtial]

Originally Posted by chris3g

spool performance makes higher-flow direct injectors however you can't just replace the injectors. The first limit for the DI fueling system is the HPFPs crashing out, so you need to replace both of those, the injectors, and you also need additional pump capacity on the low pressure side to supply the DI system. You're looking at around $8k to do an upgraded di-only fuel system.

Well sounds like I’ll be going Port Injection now 🤣.

Other then the Motiv Reflex Kit what else is needed to go PI?

Any recommendations what tune to go with? I was doing some research and it seems like BM3 is behind that ball with Motiv and read Ecutek or MHD+ is best and had fail safes. Is this true?

[chris3g]

Originally Posted by tsixtial

Well sounds like I’ll be going Port Injection now 🤣.

Other then the Motiv Reflex Kit what else is needed to go PI?

Any recommendations what tune to go with? I was doing some research and it seems like BM3 is behind that ball with Motiv and read Ecutek or MHD+ is best and had fail safes. Is this true?

At this exact moment , mhd+ is ahead , ecutek requires a cloned ecu so that is a pretty big roadblock with their platform. However when bm3 releases their rev2 + customromv2 then they might again jump in front of mhd. AhsanU gave a good summary which looks fully accurate to me so I won’t rehash any of it. What I recommend that you do is get with a good tuner, discuss your goals with them , and then go with what they suggest. I personally recommend Bend Calibration.

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by tsixtial

Well sounds like I’ll be going Port Injection now 🤣.

Other then the Motiv Reflex Kit what else is needed to go PI?

Any recommendations what tune to go with? I was doing some research and it seems like BM3 is behind that ball with Motiv and read Ecutek or MHD+ is best and had fail safes. Is this true?

PI is absolutely the way to go now as it's relatively headache free in comparison to pure DI. Spool's HPFP + upgraded injectors is quite expensive and I genuinely don't know of anyone running it, so it's tough to say if it's good/reliable. PI on the other hand, is being ran by virtually every person making big power on the S58 as is evidenced by this list of the fastest S58's out there.

To run port injection, you'll need the following: fuel rail (unless you have an upgraded intercooler/intake manifold, Precision Raceworks makes a great one), injectors (ID 1050x are great entry injectors, 1300x are probably standard on our platform though), a port controller (ReFlex or MaxxECU), and some sort of lpfp (many solutions out there, a bit of research is needed to see which suits you best. I have the Precision Raceworks standalone AFS.425)

The bare honest truth is this - bootmod3 vs. MHD is not as important as finding the right tuner that you're comfortable with or have had positive experiences with. At this point in the game, you could go MHD/ReFlex or bootmod3/MaxxECU and you'll have a favourable outcome, but it won't mean diddly squat unless you've got the right tune on your car.

Many tuners can work on either MHD or bootmod3, and many only tune through one. Some of them know how to work with MaxxECU, and some only know ReFlex as MaxxECU is relatively new to the market. I would do heavy research into one and speak to them before making any decisions. If you're not yet DME unlocked then the world is your oyster. Look into each tuner and their credentials, and proceed from there.

And fwiw, bootmod3 is slightly behind the ball but as soon as rev2 is released, they'll be on par with MHD+ and it'll be back to being even. bootmod3 was on top a little while with CustomROM, now MHD is on top with the integration of ReFlex into MHD, but bootmod3 will become more or less even after they release rev2. It's kind of a game of cat and mouse at this point, but neither is a bad option is what I'm trying to get at.

[tsixtial]

Originally Posted by AhsanU

PI is absolutely the way to go now as it's relatively headache free in comparison to pure DI. Spool's HPFP + upgraded injectors is quite expensive and I genuinely don't know of anyone running it, so it's tough to say if it's good/reliable. PI on the other hand, is being ran by virtually every person making big power on the S58 as is evidenced by this list of the fastest S58's out there.

To run port injection, you'll need the following: fuel rail (unless you have an upgraded intercooler/intake manifold, Precision Raceworks makes a great one), injectors (ID 1050x are great entry injectors, 1300x are probably standard on our platform though), a port controller (ReFlex or MaxxECU), and some sort of lpfp (many solutions out there, a bit of research is needed to see which suits you best. I have the Precision Raceworks standalone AFS.425)

The bare honest truth is this - bootmod3 vs. MHD is not as important as finding the right tuner that you're comfortable with or have had positive experiences with. At this point in the game, you could go MHD/ReFlex or bootmod3/MaxxECU and you'll have a favourable outcome, but it won't mean diddly squat unless you've got the right tune on your car.

Many tuners can work on either MHD or bootmod3, and many only tune through one. Some of them know how to work with MaxxECU, and some only know ReFlex as MaxxECU is relatively new to the market. I would do heavy research into one and speak to them before making any decisions. [...]

I appreciate your opinion and knowledge.

I just purchased the Precision Race rails so I pretty much have evening minus the LPFP. I was told the LPFP was more optional.

I haven’t purchased Motiv Reflex yet due to having some time on getting the turbo kit. I guess the 6870 is back ordered for now at KLM so just going to give it some more though on that and which tune.

I am out in California so I do have some options regarding tune and install. There is a shop called Haus of Power that has been running/installing on a lot of S58’s and they tune BM3 or MHD+

[SwankPeRFection]

You’re looking to supply more fuel to the engine beyond what the feed requirements were for the stock DI with the addition to PI. You need to make sure the low pressure pump doesn’t starve either fueling system, so upgrading it will guarantee that. There’s no point in running close to the starve limit due to the LPFP.

[christianb5s4]

So just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, if one plans to run up to E40ish on a stage 2 OTS or custom map, stock fueling is sufficient with safe headroom?

I may just wait for Rev2 just to have that flexibility adding PI but weighing how long that will take to release.

[CameronM2LCI]

On Stock Turbos yes. e40 on Stock Fueling should be more than enough for the car to handle. Once you get into E55+ Territory you are starting to get up to the stock limits of your fuel system depending how saucey the tune is.

[Jnat]

Originally Posted by CameronM2LCI

On Stock Turbos yes. e40 on Stock Fueling should be more than enough for the car to handle. Once you get into E55+ Territory you are starting to get up to the stock limits of your fuel system depending how saucey the tune is.

This is what i ran into with a custom Bend tune, E55-60 really pushes the limit on a 'saucy' tune as you say. Lambda was pushing high 13's, not great!

[Mapper]

Originally Posted by Jnat

This is what i ran into with a custom Bend tune, E55-60 really pushes the limit on a 'saucy' tune as you say. Lambda was pushing high 13's, not great!

A light correction. Lambda wouldnt be 13s. 13s would be the AFR of a particular fuel.

Lambda 1.00 means stoich ( full burn of all fuel molecules and oxygen for a set volume). Not rich or lean.
Lambda 1.00 for pure gasoline, stoich is 14.75 AFR. (Air fuel ratio).
Lambda 1.00 with E85 mix with gasoline would have an air fuel ratio AFR of 9.76ish.
Yes that means on E85 if you have an AFR wideband reading of 11.. you are LEAN!. Lean being all fuel used up and extra oxygen still remains.


When you say lambda in the 13s isnt a lambda value but an AFR value. Lmabda for pure gasoline to achieve AFR of high 13s. Lambda 0.94 is 13.8 AFR.
If you had E60 and seeing AFR of 13 is extremely lean!. If you had pure gasoline and seeing AFR of 13 you are slightly rich. Your lambda is 0.94.



Lambda doesnt care what fuel mix and is why any sane tuner uses lambda lambda 1.00 is stoich.. regardless fuel type.