View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT? | |||
I prefer a DCT. | 235 | 60.57% | |
I prefer a traditional AT. | 32 | 8.25% | |
Either is fine with me. | 53 | 13.66% | |
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. | 68 | 17.53% | |
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll |
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07-03-2019, 07:43 PM | #67 |
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All mine M3 were MT
I was also one of the first guys to own F90 M5 And it took some use to it but, end up really liking it At the end I can't live without MT so I am getting G80 MT Planning to track it as much as I can
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07-03-2019, 09:00 PM | #68 |
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I would stipulate that the ZF8 is not a "traditional " auto transmission. I will bet there will be quite a few people pleasantly surprised at the performance of the new M3 and M4 , including the ZF8. I can't wait to see the them
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07-03-2019, 09:33 PM | #69 | |
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Things to take into consideration: 1. Both transmissions can shift faster than the blink of an eye which ranges from 300 to 400 milliseconds. 2. Both transmission shift faster than the best professional race drivers can shift a manual transmission. 3. Realistically, what are we doing with these cars on public roads where shift speeds that are faster than the blink of an eye will make a difference?
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07-04-2019, 08:40 AM | #70 | |
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I find torque converter in high torque applications inconsistent in shifting in especially the downshifts as the computer is trying to figure out the safest release point <7,400 rpm which doesn't cause oil cavitation in the gearbox. Getrag DCT on the other hand is rated <=9,000 rpm which is more than enough for any turbocharged engines, so it does not have this lag. 2. The complaint about dropping DCT is not having "fast enough" transmission in either case but rather going from "fastest, uncompromising shifts" of DCT to "fast enough" shifts of torque converter. It might have worked with the grandpa community of M5-M8 buyers, but I refuse to buy an M car that has been compromised for cost cutting and daily smoothness. M340i is and should be the sole option for duality towards the daily driveability. 3. As I repeat, M stands for motorsport. If you putter around a town or floor it once in a while on the highway and don't drive the car 9 to 10/10th around tight corners of a track or mountain roads, M is just a poser car. Having a trim level (competition, CS, etc) to separate the degree of hardcore in my opinion is an excellent choice, but the base has to be good to satisfy customers of all range. I've test driven N55 M2 DCT and it was one of the fastest, smoothest transmissions I've ever driven and is on the par with PDK on 718 Cayman GTS (also test driven). ZFat on F90 M5? Not even close.
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07-04-2019, 09:08 AM | #71 | |
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By your definition my M4 is definitely a poser car as I have no intention of tracking it and I do not drive it at 10/10th on mountain roads. I bought it as a GT car and that is what I consider it to be. When I want to drive at 10/10th I have access to dedicated track cars and I have a track membership with 50 track days per year.
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07-04-2019, 09:11 AM | #72 | |
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You drive an M4 Cabriolet so obviously in a different direction compared to the Coupe owners, and I respect that.
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07-04-2019, 09:24 AM | #73 | |
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If I had a coupe I would not drive it any differently and I would not track it and there is no car that I would drive at 10/10ths on public roads and as much as I like the DCT I suspect I would be perfectly content with the ZF.
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07-04-2019, 09:56 AM | #74 | |
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ZFat may be smoother but is NOT consistently faster than DCT because if it was, BMW would have advertised the hole out of it No reason to go for ZFat over an already winning formula other than cost related to AWD. I would hate to see 1800kg M3; it is already heavy as is. Furthermore, when I buy an M or any car I first look for the capability of invoking a sensory drama by the driver, not by the car. This is the reason I greatly value elements related to the connection. While DCT is not as engaging as the MT it compensates by shift speed and distinct feel, close in philosophy to the clutch driven, sequential transmission used in race cars. It's a great alternative to those who miss the mechanical feel.
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07-04-2019, 11:40 AM | #75 |
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I don’t understand the argument that they have to move to the ZF because the higher TQ engine requires it. The S58 won’t have more torque than an F10 M5 will it? The DCT was fine with the TQ levels of that car.
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07-04-2019, 04:42 PM | #76 |
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It's an excuse , nothing more . They made the move for cost savings ( using one cheaper trans in all their awd M cars ) . Ford and Chevy using DCT in their upcoming highest performance cars shows that the American companies are valuing performance and driver experience above all else . You know like BMW used to do ....
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07-05-2019, 07:13 AM | #77 |
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I also think the ZF is just a cost cutting measure. I don't think it will ever be like the DCT.
Just the fact that the current RS5, Guilia etc use it tells you it's a transmission for posers who like bragging about 'going to the track' but never go. However, I have driven the current M5 competition and must say the ZF does an admirable job of feeling like a DCT during hard street driving. Whether it is able to handle hard track use is another question entirely |
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07-05-2019, 07:15 AM | #78 | |
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I'm sure the AWD decision in the M5 also is the core motivation to move to the ZF |
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07-05-2019, 10:14 AM | #79 |
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Mercedes puts a dual clutch transmission in their small FWD cars. Makes it even more disappointing with the ZF direction BMW are heading with their M cars. I think G80 has the potential to be fantastic with the right gearbox.
Last edited by AD18; 07-09-2019 at 07:06 PM.. |
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07-05-2019, 12:04 PM | #80 |
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Its for cost cutting. The ZF8 is in everything from a 228i to a F90 M5. I have never driven a ZF that is better than a DCT hard driving. They upshift quick and are less finicky than DCT transmissions in how they have to be driven (dct's still roll back on hills, you still feel the clutch engagement, etc). But my f30 was terribly slow when asking for downshifts flying into corners with the ABS kicking in. There are many reviews on the new supra saying the same thing.
Majority of M car drivers are not on this forum. They don't care about the automatic having a split second slower downshift, or the f80 having turbo lag compared to the e92. They buy the car because it looks cool and to show off. They will never turn off traction control, they won't know how to setup the M1 and M2 modes. So I understand why BMW has done this.
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07-05-2019, 12:30 PM | #81 | |
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07-09-2019, 09:08 AM | #82 | |
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07-10-2019, 12:38 PM | #83 |
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I owned the F90 M5 and I love the power output specially after tuning. The ZF8 was good but not perfect.
I just like to be connected with the car and have fun on track. Not necessarily have the best lap time but just pure driving enjoyment.
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07-10-2019, 06:36 PM | #84 | |
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07-11-2019, 03:28 PM | #85 |
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If it’s not a dual clutch, I’m not a buyer. Would probably prefer the m550i at the same price. Or pay a little more and get the PDK in the pamanera ST. Shift time isn’t the issue, it’s lag between pulling the paddle and the car shifting. Complete disappointment.
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07-11-2019, 04:15 PM | #86 |
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Spot on... the Audi/VW dual clutch had this problem too. Very fast shifts (they claimed 60ms or similar), but you pull the paddle and then cross your fingers hoping that it's going to get the gear change done in time.
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07-11-2019, 08:52 PM | #87 |
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Prefer DCT but BMW going AT route.
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07-12-2019, 06:46 AM | #88 | |
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When Audi and other manufacturers are claiming 60ms shift times how are they arriving at that figure?
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